The same God?

I have just been watching a really interesting documentary on the life of Muhammad which the BBC have done. You can watch it here on iplayer.

It was really interesting to listen to how Islam came about and the life of Muhammad and how he has influenced millions of people. It would be naive as Christians to dismiss engaging with this. There are certainly things that have flagged up many questions about Islam for me – especially as the programme mentions by one gentleman that Islam is built upon Judaism and Christianity and that Islam is the full stop. However the problem lies with “who is God?”. I have heard it argued that Christianity and Islam have the same God – the God of Adam, Abraham and Moses. But to me that is not true, because I believe Adam, Abraham (or Abram as he was called) and Moses knew Jesus and when the Lord walked in the Garden, ate with Abraham and spoke to Moses face to face – it doesn’t sound like the far off God that we cannot have a relationship with that Islam says. It sounds like the Lord who came eating and drinking! It sounds like the Son of God whom is the only one who knows the Father and can reveal him (No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side,  he has made him known. – John 1v18) I am afraid we don’t have the same God at all and neither did Adam, Abraham or Moses.

Well, why not watch this for yourself and do comment on what you thought of it!

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70 thoughts on “The same God?

  1. There is only one God. Like you I beleive in the God who so loved the world he gave his only son, Jesus Christ, who is with us now and forever and so is the God of Adam, Abraham and Moses.

    Like you I believe that Islam’s conception of God is limited. However, Muslims have a conception of God and this is the beginning of a rleationship with Him. It is I think very limited to say this is a different God- there is only one God. To discover God fully means discoivering Christ- yes. But to deny that Muslims are seeeking the God who sustains this universe is a step too far. Only the Infiinte God of Love knows the hearts of men and women – let Him judge these matters.

    To Muslims we should proclaim that we do indeed have the same God, God the Creator, God the Father but to have a complete and loving God, to have a personal relationship with Him means opening our hearts, to relaise that God worked through Jesus, that God became human.

    • Hello Jason, Thank you very much for commenting on my blog post!
      I understand where you are coming from, however I still don’t agree. I agree with you that there is one God and that God is Trinity – Three persons: Father, son and Holy Spirit. Which I know Muslims would deny. And what I am saying is that Adam, Abraham, Moses etc met with the Son of God (that being Jesus – not in the same way as the Jesus in NT human form, but as the Lord who appears to each one of them, eats with them and speaks to them face to face)… To say to Muslims that we have the same God, would be meaning that we would both agree with Jesus being the Son of God who reveals the Father to us (because no one has seen the Father, except the Son who reveals him John 1:18) which I don’t think Muslims would agree to. The Son has been revealing the Father to us since the start of creation (Colossians 1:15-20).

      I am certainly not having a go, I am saying we do indeed disagree on this – which is ok! But it does mean that we cannot claim to have the same God unless that God is Jesus Christ and if it is not Jesus Christ, then we are not talking about the same God. And I agree with you, to have a personal relationship with the Father, you must open your heart and know Christ…
      Those are my thoughts :) Your welcome to come back with some more comments. Thanks you for taking the time to comment and read etc :)

      • Hi Cat, I could not agree more with you. Your words are full of wisdom and spiritual insight, the kind of wisdom that can only come from God but is foolishness to this world. Praise the Lord that Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, and that with the Father and the Holy Spirit, he is the one true God. May the gracious Lord bless you abundantly. May his face shine upon you and his radiance flow through you to those around you. Love in Christ, Nicole.

      • Wow, three persons? In One? Isn’t that a mathematical impossibility. Did Paul do math?

  2. hallo there my brother in humanity,was just reading your post with regards to the program aired las week on the bbc titled muhammed..(p.b.u.h)
    and i just couldn’t help but reply and hopefully try to readress the misunderstanding you have with regards to Allah and if we indeed have the same god as you being a christian and me being a muslim…so here goes:
    with regards to your question/statement i.e do we share he same god,the resounding answer is yes,muslim,christians,jews(people of other faith systems,even aitheists)share the same god..in fact i would go on to add that that is the biggest common denominator that we share as humanbeings/mankind(which ever term you prefer)and to go even further as to say that this is something we also share in common with the rest of creation i.e everything that exists in the universe…we all share the same creator be it a planet or a living organism, whether its a tree,mountain or the sun and the galaxies.so that is my first point..for we all know hat God,the ultimate creator is but one,and the evidence for this is the very first and most commandment(exodus 20:1-3)”i am the Lord thy god and thou shall not have any god before me” and this is also part of the very statement that someone makes when they embrace islam in order to enter into its fold “laa ilaha illallah” which translated means there is no God/deity but God.so with the stamement one negates the existences of any other gods/deities and testifies that there is nothing worthy of worship but the ultimate creator and that he is but one..the one who we muslims refer to as Allah….more on term Allah later.
    the 2nd part to that testimony of faith is to believe and confirm that Muhhamed p.b.u.h is the messenger god..(but thats another matter which you did not refer to so it would be straying from the point,so lets stick to the script,i can explain that when your ready)
    so to conclude my first point god is one as according to the bible and the quran. so that means that the god of Adam,Noah,Abraham,Issac,Ishmael,Jacob,Joseph,moses,King David,Solomon,Mary mother of Jesus,Jesus,Muhammed(peace be upon the all)your god and my god,the god of the aminals(you get the picture right?)the seas,the heavens and the earth IS ONE GOD…so its umpossible for us to have different gods,for we are all creation and there is a creator.one creator who created everything…i think i’ve been comprehensive enough..(forgive if i’ve sounded patronising or condenscending,that is far from the case)
    my last point is that yes the islamic belief is that islam and prophet muhammed(p.b.u.h) prophethood is the natural continuation of the message of jesus the christ(p.b.u.h) jus like he’s was the continuation of moses’s(p.b.u.h)message and what he was given in the torah.the islamic belief(and we as muslims also believe in and love jesus the christ(p.b.u.h)by the way,which is something not known to all christians,in fact it goes as far as one cannot be muslim if you dnt believe in jesus) is that all the messengers of God from Noah up till the last one Muhammed(peace be upon them all..are from the same creator who over time has sent his messengers to remind mankind of him and teach us about him(god),how to worship him how to get to heaven.this has been the role of the prophet and messengers and that they were all men…the greatest men of mankind but men none the less..not gods or mangods who share divinity with god and are to be worshiped bt just men.
    now the thing about judaism,christianity and islam(as opposed to the other faiths of the world) is that we are or supposed to be the monestetic faith and infact we have a lot more in common than differences(funny that isnt is,when all that ever seems to be highlighted are our differences)so for example,the commonalities are we believe in one god(hence the term monetsetic faiths),we all believe in heaven and hell,the angels of god,adam & eve,jugement day etc…we even share all the same prophets and messengers,the only differences(ohh here we go,here what all the hatred and fighting is all about)are and they are fundamental differences which are and will be the difference between some1 going to heaven or hell….anyways,the differences are that jews belives in all the prophets&messengers from noah(p.b.u,h) onward but stop and moses(p.b.u.h).For they denied Jesus and said he was not the christ or messiah which is what the term christ means(p.b.u.h)this is a well known and documented thing right?
    as for the christian,they believe is all of gods prophets & messengers including moses(p.b.u.h)but stop at jesus(p.b.u.h)and do exactly what the jews did to jesus(p.b.u.h),they now do to muhhammed(p.b.u.h) i.e deny him as a messenger from god..the irony is both jesus and muhammmedI(p.b.u.t)are mentioned in the old testament and muhammed(p.b.u.h) is also mentioned in the new testament….(funny innit,its like a carry on film,you couldnt make this stuff up)the other thing with regards to jesus(p.b.u.h)(forgive me here,without running the risk of sounding critical or some1 attacking christianity but god willing the truth shall set us free) as they sayis that poor Jesus(p.b.u.h)despite his own attempts to reject this,has been accreditted with divinity and made into a object of worship.(okay now i’m playing with fire,let me not stoke it any further)back to the script….as i was saying the islamic belief is that god sent his messengers to makind over time to teach us about him and their message was submission to God(which suprise,suprise..thats what islam actually means,unlike other religions that are named after people or places,islam is the only religion that has God in the title and is staunchly holding on to the concept of monesthesim)and all the messengers of god from Noah down to Muhammed(p.b.u.t)taught exactly that and we love and accept them all without rejecting any…hope that kinda explains it a bit more or hope it has further helped to shed some light into islamic belief..there so musc more to say and so lil time and i also dont want to bore you,but if you are a honest seeker of the truth and someone who trully loves god and wants to worship god and get to heaven of which i have no doubt you do and are that person then feel free to get in touch and we can open dialouge and exchange opinions,be honest with ourselve,think subjectively and apply rationale and hopefully come to agreement upon the truth.for the truth is out there and the ultimate,unequivocal,unadulterated truth is singular,we cant have more than one truth,and not everybody can posses their own version of the truth..so let the quest and the soul serching begin….and may all mighty god guide us all to the truth.Ameen

  3. Hello Islam Dawa, thank you for joining the conversation and bringing in what you believe. If you could please clarify a few points though as you have made several statements but no references as to where they occur or to back up your claims. If you could clarify where you sourced these statements please:
    1. Muhammed mentioned in the Old Testament
    2. Muhammed mentioned in the New Testament
    3. Jesus denies divinity

    There are also some statements that I’d like to make as well and I hope I do so without offense as I would like to help bring some clarity to what Christians believe for you.

    You make the statement that all faiths teach ‘submission to God’. Christians do not believe this and this is not what Jesus and the bible teaches. Jesus taught that no one gets to the father (heaven) except through Him (John 14:1-12)). This wasn’t to submit but to follow, believe and put your trust in Jesus. What does this mean? It means to try to live as Jesus did, following his teachings about how to live and putting God before all else in your life.

    Jesus is not an “object” of worship as He (Jesus) and the father (God) are one (John 10 vs 30). This is part of the Christian theology of the trinity. There is one God and he has three persons – we can delve into this a bit more another time as it will distract from the conversation. We do agree that to worship a man is idolatry, and that is where we differ. Jesus rose from the dead, proving previous prophecies about Him and His divinity which can be backed up in history. I believe the Qur’an says it wasn’t Jesus on the cross though this idea is not plausible due to the amount of people recognizing Jesus on the cross.

    A final point, is that you continue to claim that we worship the same God with the same message. The problem with this is that throughout the bible, both the Old Testament and the New Testament, God does not change. Jesus fulfills lots of Old Testament prophecies and provides an image of who God is. Jesus says no one gets to the father except through Him, and if you recognize Jesus and His teachings then there is no room for Muhammed because the two completely contradict each other. Jesus says to love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you and never says to punish or force unbelievers to submit. This cannot be said for Muhammed. If Jesus and Muhammed point to the same God, why does their message differ so much?

    I look forward to your reply.

  4. Hello
    Dear Friend Phil Duncalfe

    Reply to your first point:
    In order to get to God (Father ‘as in your text’) first you have to submit to God, in other words admit or believe that there is a God and the only ONE. After this comes the way to get close to him, and no doubt that this way is to follow the teachings of Jesus or Muhammad.

    Your second point is a controversy in Christianity itself, so I wont reply to that.

    Reply to the Final Point:
    By saying that two profits contradict each other, you are trying to prove that both had different GODS, that is not how it works, every Prophet contradicts each other in one way or the other.
    Let me explain … Muhammad PBUH was not only a Prophet but a Leader as well, and the reason for that was the need of an ideal constitution and society at that time.
    Since in Quran Allah or God gave the man kind a constitution, Muhammad had to implement this in Arabia (which was his duty as the last Prophet) and the only way to do this was either to get the leaders of that time to agree and put the Quranic constitution in practice or to conquer Arabia and implement it by himself.
    The reason why Muhammad went to war was not to spread the religion but to defend himself and the followers of Islam from the enemies.
    Because when Muhammad PBUH became the ruler of Arabia, in his time every religion had great freedom and no one imposed Islam on any body. Even his Uncle Abubakar, did not submit to Islam or Quranic teachings.

    Please Reply

    Thanks

    • Hello NJ,
      Can you be clear on what second point is a controversy in Christianity? Do you mean this point – Muhammed mentioned in the New Testament? Or do you mean Christian Theology of the trinity? Sorry, I just wanted to be clear I understood what you meant. Thank you!

  5. hello there phil.hope all is well and good with you and your family, may this find you and them in the best of health.many thanks for your reply and honest questions with regards to some of the statements i made on my last post..Alhumdulillah(all praise be to god) i have a long and comprehensive reply for you so here goes:

    a)MUHAMMAD:
    The Prophet Like Unto Moses:deuetronomy18:15-22
    God’s promise to send the long-awaited Messenger was repeated this time in Moses’ words.
    In Deuteronomy 18:18, Moses spoke of the prophet to be sent by God who is:
    from among the Israelite’s “brethen”, a reference to their Ishmaelite cousins the arabs as Ishmael was the other son of Abraham who was explicitly promised to become a “great nation”.(genesis21:12-13&genesis21:18-20)and we know the israelites are from issac and the arabs are from ishamael which make them cousins or in the words of the bible “brethens”.
    There were hardly any two prophets who were so much alike as Moses and Muhammad(p.b.u.t). Both were given comprehensive law code of life, both encountered their enemies and were victors in miraculous ways, both were accepted as prophets/statesmen and both migrated following conspiracies to assassinate them. Analogies between Moses and Jesus overlooks not only the above similarities but other crucial ones as well (e.g. the natural birth, family life and death of Moses and Muhammad but not of Jesus, who was regarded by His followers as the Son of God and not exclusively a messenger of God, as Moses and Muhammad were and as Muslims believe Jesus was also).so we can see that if we compare them Jesus(p.b.u.h)is not like moses(p.b.u.h)whereas Muhammed(p.b.u.h)is exactly like moses.so that prophecy(deut18:15)could not apply to jesus(p.b.u.h)Also both moses and muhammed were married and had children whereas jusus did neither and both muhammed and moses’s phrophethood spaned more than 20 years in which the saw the laws that the were given by god that they preached established on the land whereas jesus’s ministry lasted between 2-3 years and didnt manage to establish any laws because he was calling his people to the laws given to moses(mathew5:17,john7:19)

    B) THE AWAITED PROPHET WAS TO COME FROM ARABIA
    Deuteronomy 33:1-2 combines references to Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. It speaks of God (i.e. God’s revelation) coming from Sinai, rising from Seir (probably the village of Sa’ir near Jerusalem) and shining forth from Paran. According to Genesis 21:21, the wilderness of Paran in the desert was the place where Ishmael settled (i.e. Arabia, specifically Mecca).after being cast out with him mothe by sarah,Abraham’s(p.b.u.h) 1st wife.
    Indeed the King James version of the Bible mentions the pilgrims passing through the valley of Be’ca (another name of Mecca) in Psalms 84:4-6.

    Isaiah 42:1-13 speaks of the beloved of God. His elect and messenger who will bring down a law to be awaited in the isles and who “shall not fail nor be discouraged till he have set judgement on earth.” Verse 11, connects that awaited one with the descendants of Ke’dar. Who is Ke’dar? According to Genesis 25:13, Ke’dar was the second son of Ishmael, the ancestor of prophet Muhammad.(so yet another prophecy)

    MUHAMMAD’S MIGRATION FROM MECCA TO MEDINA:
    PROPHECIED IN THE BIBLE?

    Habakkuk 3:3 speaks of God (God’s help) coming from Te’man (an Oasis North of Medina according to J. Hasting’s Dictionary of the Bible), and the holy one (coming) from Paran. That holy one who under persecution migrated from Paran (Mecca) to be received enthusiastically in Medina was none but prophet Muhammad.
    Indeed the incident of the migration of the prophet and his persecuted followers is vividly described in Isaiah 21:13-17. That section foretold as well about the battle of Badr in which the few ill-armed faithful miraculously defeated the “mighty” men of Ke’dar, who sought to destroy Islam and intimidate their own folks who turned -to Islam.(and those phrophecies clear and bold as daylight in the bible could definately not apply to our beloved jesus(p.b.u.h)

    Even THE QUR’AN is FORETOLD IN THE BIBLE?

    For twenty-three years, God’s words (the Qur’an) were truely put into Muhammad’s mouth. He was not the “author” of the Qur’an. The Qur’an was dictated to him by Angel Gabriel who asked Muhammad to simply repeat the words of the Qur’an as he heard them. These words were then committed to memory and to writing by those who hear them during Muhammad’s life time and under his supervision.

    Was it a coincidence that the prophet “like unto Moses” from the “brethren” of the Israelites (i.e. from the lshmaelites) was also described as one in whose mouth God will put his words and that he will speak in the name of God, (Deuteronomy 18:18-20). Was it also a coincidence the “Paraclete” that Jesus foretold to come after Him was described as one who “shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak (John 16:13)(new testament,Jesus himself telling us of the coming of Muhammed)

    Was it another coincidence that Isaiah ties between the messenger connected with Ke’dar and a new song (a scripture in a new language) to be sang unto the Lord (Isaiah 42:10-11). More explicitly, prophesies Isaiah “For with stammering lips, and another tongue, will he speak to this people” (Isaiah 28:11). This latter verse correctly describes the “stammering lips” of Prophet Muhammad reflecting the state of tension and concentration he went through at the time of revelation. Another related point is that the Qur’an was revealed in piece-meals over a span of twenty three years. It is interesting to compare this with Isaiah 28:10 whichspeaks of the same thing.

    c)THAT PROPHET- PARACLETE- MUHAMMAD

    Up to the time of Jesus (peace be upon him), the Israelites were still awaiting for that prophet like unto Moses prophecied in Deuteronomy 18:18. When John the Baptist came, they asked him if he was Christ and he said “no”. They asked him if he was Elias and he said “no”. Then, in apparent reference to Deuteronomy 18:18, they asked him “Art thou that Prophet” and he answered, “no”. (John 1: 1 9-2 1).
    Now,turning back to the new testament,let us lookk at john14:15-16,it says that”if you love me,keep my commandments,and i will pray to the father to send you another helper that he may abide with you forever etc…… the one thing we must remember is that Jesus spoke the gospel in his native language which was aramaic.the earliest translations were in greek..now it is interesting to note that in the greek translations the word used for what would be eventually be translated into english as comforter or helper is “parqaleeta”,and the meaning of this word is
    one whom people praise exceedingly,.it definately does not mean the “comforter”which is wha we are led to believe it means.Now here come the fascinating part(wait for it)because tthat is exactly what the name muhammed means,”the one whom people praise exceedingly.(look it up for yourselves)
    In the Gospel according to John (Chapters 14, 15, 16) Jesus spoke of the “Paraclete” or comforter who will come after him, who will be sent by Father as another Paraclete, who will teach new things which the contemporaries of Jesus could not bear. While the Paraclete is described as the spirit of truth, (whose meaning resemble Muhammad’s famous title Al-Amin, the trustworthy), he is identified in one verse as the Holy Ghost (John 14:26). Such a designation is however inconsistent with the profile of that Paraclete. In the words of the Dictionary of the Bible, (Ed. J. Mackenzie) “These items, it must be admitted do not give an entirely coherent picture.”

    Indeed history tells us that many early Christians understood the Paraclete to be a man and not a spirit. This might explain the followings who responded to some who claimed, without meeting the criteria stipulated by Jesus, to be the awaited “Paraciete”.

    It was Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) who was the Paraclete, Comforter, helper, admonisher sent by God after Jesus. He testified of Jesus, taught new things which could not be borne at Jesus’ time, he spoke what he heard (revelation), he dwells with the believers (through his well-preserved teachings). Such teachings will remain forever because he was the last messenger of God, the only Universal Messenger to unite the whole of humanity under God and on the path of PRESERVED truth. He told of many things to come which “came to pass” in the minutest detail meeting, the criterion given by Moses to distinguish between the true prophet and the false prophets (Deuteronomy 18:22). He did reprove the world of sin, of righteousness and of judgement (John 16:8-11)

    D) WAS THE SHIFT OF RELIGIOUS LEADERSHIP PROPHECIED?

    Following the rejection of the last Israelite prophet, Jesus, it was about time that God’s promise to make Ishmael a great nation be fulfilled (Genesis 21:13, 18)

    In Matthew 21:19-21, Jesus spoke of the fruitless fig tree (A Biblical symbol of prophetic heritage) to be cleared after being given a last chance of three years (the duration of Jesus’ ministry) to give fruit. In a later verse in the same chapter, Jesus said: “Therefore, say I unto you, The Kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruit thereof” (Matthew 21:43). That nation of Ishmael’s descendants (the rejected stone in Matthew 21:42) which was victorious against all super-powers of its time as prophecied by Jesus: “And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken, but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder” (Matthew 21:44).

    Now ask yourself Is it possible that the numerous prophecies cited here are all individually and combined out of context misinterpretations? Is the opposite true, that such infrequently studied verses fit together consistently and clearly point to the advent of the man who changed the course of human history, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Is it reasonable to conclude that all these prophecies, appearing in different books of the Bible and spoken by various prophets at different times were all coincidence? If this is so here is another strange “coincidence”!

    One of the signs of the prophet to come from Paran (Mecca) is that he will come with “ten thousands of saints” (Deuteronomy 33:2 KJV). That was the number of faithful who accompanied Prophet Muhammad to Paran (Mecca) in his victorious, bloodless return to his birthplace to destroy the remaining symbols of idolatry in the Ka’bah.

    Says God as quoted by Moses:
    And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. (Deuteronomy 18:19)

    thank you for taking the time to read this,please have a look for yourselves,its all there for all to see in the bible.May the light of truth shine in our hearts and minds. May it lead you to peace and certitude and servertude of god both in this life and eternal bliss in hereafter.
    Look forward to hearing from you.Islam dawa..

  6. Just a quick comment to say thank you for all your comments in this conversation, I am finding it very interesting and I will reply to some of them, but I don’t want to interupt the flow too much as Phil has asked some good questions and they are being replied to.

    I do have a quick question to those who are commenting who are Muslims – in regards to this BBC programme – do you think the story of Muhammad was portrayed correctly and accurately in this programme? I haven’t watched the next one yet, but I hope to soon.

  7. Hello Phil Duncalfe
    I am sorry if I am interrupting the flow. If so, ignore my replies to the questions. As a revert to Islam I had the same questions as you. It is really nice that you are taking time to learn about what Islam Actually teaches. I would like to give a reply to all your questions but find this blog format limiting. What I really encourage you to do is to visit your local mosque and find a person there who can answer your questions in detail. Here I will answer them briefly.

    The teachings o Jesus phub and Muhammed phub do not contradict each other.

    “How to pray?” Easy you say, teach the Lords Prayer! Yes, that what I thought until I
    translated it from the original to English.

    I was using a Strong’s Concordance, several lexicons and other theological reference books.

    The “Lords prayer” can be found in the gospels Luke 11vs2 & Matt 5vs9.

    Ok recite with me……………………………….

    “Our Father who is in heaven – STOP THERE!

    It doesn’t say that! Jesus NEVER says the word “Father!”

    What does he say?

    He actually says “Our “ELOHIM” who is in heaven”

    Try reading the Lords prayer but put Elohim in its rightful place and note that when Jesus
    has taught us how to pray he then says in Matthew “when you fast!” And teaches how to fast
    and please God with fasting!

    Jesus declares that His God is “Elohim” – the Creator, the Judge, The Almighty!

    So the theory that Jesus has a father is straight away blown out of the water!

    Here comes the challenge!

    I decided that Jesus was the one I should be learning from, with the exception of John
    the Baptist there is no one else who can make any claim of being a Prophet in the New
    Testament. The other N/T books are written by companions (disciples) and mainly Paul
    (Paul is NOT a prophet!) some say maybe there are some good morals to learn but the
    ultimate ,directional teaching and prophesies can only come from a prophet ,therefore my
    main question to myself was “What did Jesus say?”

    That is my challenge to anyone calling themselves Christian’s.

    “Christ” “ian”: meaning – “little Christ” or one who follows the teachings of Christ!

    WHAT DID JESUS ACTUALLY SAY?
    Then realise that the word “father or dad” is only mentioned 3 times in the New Testament!

    The Aramaic word “abba” or father is only used in the following references Mark 14 vs36
    attributed to Jesus and the other two references are attributed to Paul (who as we said is
    NOT a prophet)Romans 8 vs15 and Galatians 4vs6.

    What did Jesus say?

    Matt 23 vs 9 “Do not call anyone on earth your father, for ONE is your father, He who is in
    heaven!”

    Mark 12 vs 29 “The first of all the commandments “Hear O Israel the Lord OUR GOD, The
    Lord is ONE”

    Matt 4 vs 10 & Luke 4 vs 8 “ It is written you shall worship the Lord your God and Him
    ONLY shall you serve”

    John 12 vs 44 “He who believes in me, believes NOT in me, but in Him who sent me”

    John 7 vs 5 “My doctrine is NOT mine but is His who sent me”

    Matt 5 vs 17 (also confirmed in Luke 16 vs 17 and Matt 7 vs 12) “Do not think that I came
    to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfil. For assuredly I
    say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle (like a comma, full-stop,or
    fatha,damma) will by no means pass from the law until all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore
    breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so shall be called least
    in the kingdom of heaven but whoever does and teaches them shall be called great in the
    kingdom of heaven”

    If you remember earlier I laid out clearly the books of LAW and the PROPHETS.

    So now we know why Jesus came, the next question is “who did he come to preach to?”

    Matt 10 vs 5 “Do NOT go to the Gentiles or Samaritans, but go to the lost sheep of the house
    of Israel”

    John 4 vs 22 “Salvation is for the Jews”

    Matt 15 vs 21 – 28 also Mark 7 vs24-30 “I was NOT sent except to the lost sheep of Israel”

    Matt 18 vs 11-14 is a parable specific to the Israelites ,Jesus calls himself “The son of man”
    and that the it is not Elohim’s will that even one sheep from the Israelites should perish.

    I’ll never forget when the “penny dropped” “I’m not an Israelite so Jesus didn’t come for
    me!”

    What did he actually do?

    He continuously quoted previous prophets, he lamented over Jerusalem, He was used

    By “Elohim” to give the Jews another chance to actually repent,start practising their religion
    and start worshipping the way they really should. Through his servant Jesus, God as a mercy
    to the rebellious Israelites sent signs , so Jesus, healed the sick, raised the dead, cast out evil
    spirits, multiplied food, All praise is to God that the list is so long!

    Luke 19 vs46, Mark 11 vs 17 and Matt 21 vs 13 Jesus gets angry overturns tables in the temple
    and says “It is written my house is a house of prayer, but you have made it a den of thieves”

    Think about the story of the man possessed with the unclean spirits called “legion” this was
    not just a miracle for this man to be whole and in his right mind but was another example of
    Jesus fulfilling the Law! In the book of Deuteronomy 23 vs19 it states that the meat of swine
    is unclean to eat! The Law also states the way animals should be slaughtered! It is clear that
    Jesus came to fulfil the Law so the other miracle in this story is that as well as delivering
    the man from spiritual oppression is that Jesus cast the evil spirits into approx 2000 pigs!
    The pigs were then drowned. Where’s the miracle I hear you say? Because Jesus is bound
    to fulfil the Law the only way to kill lawful animals is by slaughter (draining the blood etc.)
    But because pigs are NOT lawful to eat they could be drowned. Jesus wasn’t just helping the
    man. The miracle is that he was exposing the sin and he was ruining the business of whoever
    was “pig farming.”

    Ask yourself “Why do Christians today eat pig if Jesus didn’t?”

    Even as a baby Jesus fulfilled the Law, he was circumcised, named and dedicated to God!
    Luke 2 vs 21

    Why are Christian boy’s not circumcised – where does it say you shouldn’t?

    I sincerely hope that you are starting to see Jesus in a different light, to see how the teaching
    of most churches is so far from what actually happened.

    Jesus never took praise, he never said “worship me,” he never said “bow to me,” he never
    said “pray to me” Jesus NEVER said “I am God”

    On the contrary He worshiped God, He praised God and if you read Matt26 vs39 and Mark
    14 vs 35 you will realise that Jesus prostrated him self, he fell on his face, and he fell to the
    ground and prayed to ELOHIM!

    If Jesus was God then why would he need to be baptised? (Matt 3 vs13, Mark 1 vs 9-11, John
    1 vs 32-34 and Luke 3 vs 21-22.)

    Jesus also said in Luke 22 vs 18 “I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of
    God comes!”

    Ask yourself “Why do Christians drink wine when Jesus stopped and said that he wouldn’t
    drink the fruit of the vine until the judgement day?”

    Mention o prophet Muhammad in the New Testament:
    The first mention of “spirit” in the bible is in the first book Genesis “chpt 1 vs 2 “And the
    Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters!”

    Here goes another word study!

    The word here was a Hebrew word is “Ruah” meaning spirit.

    The Greek alternative that is equivalent and used in the New Testament is “Pneuma”

    Both words mean the spirit, the unseen, the breath and the wind. This is the best way I can
    describe it. Greek is also interesting as an object is either: masculine, feminine or neutral.
    For reference “Pneuma” is neutral (very important!)

    Going through the New Testament was easy writing all the references for “pneuma” this is
    when things got interesting!

    A new word appeared where I was expecting Pneuma!

    This word was “Parakletos”(masculine noun) with 5 references in the N/T: John 14 vs16,
    John 14 vs 26, John 15 vs 26, John 16 vs 7 and 1John 2 vs 1!

    But wait “Sherlock” there is more …….. Jesus prophesies that “After him, he is sending
    another paraclete”

    The word “another” is the Greek word “ALLOS” meaning “another – of the same kind”

    This was SO important, my mind was racing who was this (masculine) ‘parakletos’ and like

    Jesus i.e.: a flesh and blood Prophet!

    I needed to know the meaning of the word ‘parakletos’ to understand more.

    As the bible is written in several languages I wanted to be sure that I covered everything, this
    is what I found:

    Parakletos: masculine, Greek word, Meaning ‘para’ = along side ‘Kaleo’ = call

    Meaning: Advocate, exhort, comfort, console, beseech, entreat, one who comes along side,

    As there is evidence that especially John and Marks Gospels have Aramaic content I also
    checked the Aramaic.

    Mowhamana: is the Aramaic equivalent, meaning ‘greatly praised’

    It was worth noting that in the Greek language there is a word with very similar meaning to
    the Aramaic:

    Periklytos: masculine, Greek, meaning ‘much praised’ or ‘glorious’

    By now I was curious so I also checked the Hebrew translation ‘farat’ ‘lete’ meaning “one who
    is praised”. It also relates to the Arabic verb ‘hamida’ meaning: “praised”

    I remembering circling around a name in a book that stayed with me until I realised by
    the grace and mercy of God who this ‘person – parakletos’ was for myself. The name
    was “Ahmed” which at the time I thought strange because why would Jesus prophesy that
    one coming after him was of Arab descent?

    I was sure that this reference was in Strong’s Concordance (ref:G3875) but I don’t have
    my reference books now and this was 11/12 years ago when I discovered this ,but it was
    definitely something that bugged me for years. During writing this I did check Strong’s
    online and although I found ‘Parakletos’ I couldn’t find ‘Ahmed’ so I can only conclude it was
    in one of the other reference books.

    So what did Jesus say that this advocate, this one who would be praised would do?

    John14 vs 16 “He will abide with you forever” “will teach you all things”

    “He will bring to remembrance all the things I said” “He is the spirit of truth”

    “He will testify of me”

    “Guide you into all truth” “whatever he hears he will speak”

    “He will tell you of things to come” “He will confirm and declare what I say”

    “convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgement”

    My message is very long so I will stop here. Thanks for reading.
    Peace,
    AMS

  8. I would like to add that the Gospel of Barnabas which is not included in the Bible mentions how the likeness of Jesus phub was put on another man who was then cruified. There is also Gospel of Mary and Gospel of Philip that are not included in the Bible. Also, It is widely known that there are scrolls hidden in the Vatican that will be kept there and not for the public (but what do they say?)

    Thanks again,

  9. Crikey that is a post and a half Islam Dawa! Thank you for your kind words and I do hope the same for you and your family. I will do my best to respond to your statements regarding the Bible references. Please do respond to them and read the full chapters as many of your arguments are self refuting when the whole passage is read. Links are provided.

    Deuteronomy 18:
    If we look at the whole chapter, the first two verses uses the word brethren in similar terms as verse 15:
    “The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: They shall eat the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and his inheritance. Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the LORD is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them. (Deuteronomy 18:1-2)”

    This verse is clearly talking about brethren in terms of other tribes of Israel. By verse 15, the context of the word ‘brethren’ does not switch to Ishmaelites. The same term is also referred to in Deut. 15 and 17 and also clearly refers to Israel. Please do read the whole chapter as the meaning of the term ‘brethren’ throughout the chapter does not change from referring to Israel.
    In verse 15 you focus on ‘thy brethren’ but miss ‘from the midst of thee’. It is clear that ‘from the midst of thee’ is referencing Israel, Muhammed was not raised ‘from the midst’ of the Israelites.
    You have made statements around the similarities of Moses and Muhammed which on face value may seem more clear than Jesus. The issue is that we can look to another verse and chapter in Deuteronomy to see what Moses means when he says ‘like unto me’. Deuteronomy 34:9-12 says:
    “And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the LORD commanded Moses. And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, in all the signs and wonders, which the LORD sent him to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land, and in all that mighty hand, and in all the great terror which Moses shewed in the sight of all Israel. (Deuteronomy 34:9-12)”

    We are now looking for a prophet who the LORD (Yahweh) knew face to face, provided signs and wonders and showed to all Israel. Muhammed received revelation from Gabriel, did not do miracles and did not show them to Israel. Jesus, on the other hand, fulfils these criteria in both the Bible and Qur’an.

    Deuteronomy 33:2

    “ And he said, The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.”
    How you get your conclusion from this passage I am not quite sure. Even out of context this is clearly stating that “The Lord came from Sinai, and [the Lord] rose up from Seir unto them; he [the Lord] shined forth from mount Paran, and he[the Lord] came with ten thousands of saints etc.” To state otherwise is wrestling with the English language let alone biblical studies.

    Even if you don’t agree with the issue of language above, this is clearly a reference to the Israelites flight from Egypt and the land they went through. Paran is nowhere near Mecca and is located in northwest Sinai. How do we know this? Due to Paran being spoken about in Numbers 10:12, Numbers 12:16, Numbers 13:3 and 26 and Deuteronomy 1:1. Either way, the language also refers to the past, not the future (came, rose, shined, came). If it were talking about Muhammed it would be “he will shine forth…”. There is also a geographical issue with Seir as it is mentioned several times (Gen 14,32,33,36…) as the country of Edom. This was not Sa’ir near Jerusalem.

    QUR’AN FORETOLD
    I’m afraid all of the verses you have used have been taken out of their context. Your first point I have already discussed previously with Deut. 18. The reference to John 16:13 (“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.”) is clearly talking about the Spirit of truth, (i.e. The Holy Spirit) and a reference of how the trinity (God in three persons) works.
    Your references to Isaiah 28:11 are again out of context. This chapter is about the drunkards of Ephraim and their stupidity and how they will only be able to taught as children – line by line, piece by piece. Verse 11 is God using another strategy (a foreign army) for Ephraim to hear His word and yet they still do not hear and fall away. This is a warning against a Godless tribe and the verses 14-29 are actually pointing to Jesus. To pinpoint verse 11 and say, ‘this is Muhammed’ is a huge stretch of the imagination. Even more of a stretch of the imagination is your quote from Isaiah 42 and Habakuk 3:3.

    PROPHET – PARACLETE – MUHAMMED
    I will focus on one part of your argument which everything else you state comes from. This argument is a copy and paste of Jamal Badawi who has completely misquoted John McKenzie and again taken words out of context and missed their real meaning. McKenzie (I will refer to his last name so as not to confuse with the gospel of John) actually says:

    “Paraclete (Gk parakletos) the word is not used in the LXX and only 5 times in the NT. In profane Gk the word means the person called to the side of one in need of assistance, particular in legal processes; but it does not signify a professional advocate (which Lt advocatus does mean). Hence, the general meaning of paraclete is helper. Profane Gk also employs the word as an active verbal adjective, i.e., one who speaks on behalf of another, an intercessor. The roots of the NT are difficult to trace, and they have not been found in comparative religious phenomena of the Hellenistic world. It is probable that the phrase is closely connected with the function of the spirit of truth as “helper” in the Qumran* documents, and this meaning best suits the biblical occurrences of the word.

    Jesus Himself is called paraclete before the Father (1 Jn 2:1); since it is He to whom the sinner turns, the word in this passage must mean intercessor. It is not clear, however, that this meaning of the word is at the base of the use of the word in Jn 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7. Jn 14:26 implies that Jesus Himself is primarily the paraclete, for the spirit who is sent is “another” paraclete. The meaning of paraclete as applied to the spirit* can be deduced only from what is said of the mission of the spirit. He is the spirit of truth (Jn 14:16); He will teach the disciples all truth and bring to their minds what Jesus has told them (14:26; 16:13); He will bear witness to Jesus (15:26); He will demonstrate the error of the world concerning sin, righteousness, and judgment (16:6-11); He will give glory to Jesus (16:14). These items, it must be admitted, do not give an entirely coherent picture. They are almost entirely fulfilled by speech, either formally or equivalently, but the speech is not the speech of intercession. In a broad sense the paraclete, then, is conceived as a helper. Scholars are quite generally agreed that the word as applied to the spirit should not be translated “comforter” or “consoler,” as an active verbal adjective derived from the verb parakalein, and the context justifies this exclusion.” (McKenzie, pp. 636-637)”

    It is such a blatant misuse of a quote and misrepresenting a person that should not be repeated as much as it is around the internet. McKenzie is clearly discussing what the Paraclete does rather than who the Paraclete is. Mckenzie defines the Paraclete later as the spirit of God later on in the book.

    The rest of your argument does not stand when reading John as a whole rather than picking out verses as you have.

    SHIFT OF RELIGIOUS LEADERSHIP PROPHESIED

    I’m afraid you’ve done it again. You’ve referenced three verses and put them in a different order to produce a different message. Please read the whole of chapter 21, it is clearly talking about Jesus dying. The stone that the builders rejected is very clearly Jesus talking about himself. These aren’t verses that are “infrequently studied” as you suggest. You have picked a quote out of Matthew that is read every Easter – the most important time in the Christian calendar! You have stated it yourself – “numerous prophecies cited here are all individually and combined out of context misrepresentations”. Yes I have taken your quote out of context but this is an example of the power of taking a quote out of context and twisting it to fit my argument.

    After all this, you have not mentioned my point 3 which was where did Jesus deny his divinity? I do look forward to your second post about the same message.

    This does cause issues for Islam as the Qur’an does claim there are prophecies in the bible but none of the ones discussed are about Muhammed.

    My next few statements will more answer NJ so I will reply to him separately soon (this post took me ages!).

    God bless.

  10. Interesting conversation, I was going to post something similar but there seems no point now that Cat has stoked the fire as it were.

    Just a few more observations similar to Phil that I have picked up and have issue with;

    One of the many issues I have with Muslims trying to interpret Muhammad into the Old or New Testament scriptures is that no reasonable reference exists, and one must be honest about this. The reason that Muslims believe there is, is not because its clear or actually there its because they have been told, wrongly in my opinion that Muhammad is somewhere hiding in Christian and Jewish scriptures.

    Surah 7:157 states – Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them.

    So Muslims are obligated to try and find Muhammad somewhere in the scriptures there are two popular attempts, both of which fail miserably, one is from the song of songs 5:16 and the other is as Islam dawa has argued below making the case from the Gospel of John chapters 14,15 and 16 that –

    ‘It was Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) who was the Paraclete, Comforter, helper, admonisher sent by God after Jesus. He testified of Jesus, taught new things which could not be borne at Jesus’ time, he spoke what he heard (revelation), he dwells with the believers (through his well-preserved teachings). Such teachings will remain forever because he was the last messenger of God, the only Universal Messenger to unite the whole of humanity under God and on the path of PRESERVED truth.’

    So some problems that arise with just this particular case are that;
    The word used to describe the Holy Spirit in the cases above is Parakletos which any Greek lexicon will tell you means helper/advocate, the word you are getting mixed up with is Paraklutos which means ‘Praised one’ which is meant to refer to Muhammad, unfortunately this word isn’t used anywhere in the NT. It is claimed by many Muslims that because the Christian scriptures have been corrupted and changed that the words were changed at some point.

    However there is zero evidence for this and every single Greek manuscript we possess prior to Muhammed all say unanimously Parakletos and not Paraklutos. Also we can know that the New Testament (NT) hasn’t been changed in this area since we can rebuild the whole NT from the early Church fathers alone bar 11 verses, there are also over 60 Greek manuscripts that pre-date Muhammed s birth.

    When ever the word Helper [Parakletos] is used it simply makes no sense to posit ‘praised one’ there instead. Muhammed just doesn’t fulfil anything Jesus spoke about, lets have a look at a few examples from John 14:16-20;

    a) ‘..he will give you another ‘praised one’ – Doesn’t actually make any sense. Jesus then goes onto refer to this helper as the Spirit of truth. Since when has Muhammed ever been referred to as the Spirit of truth? Not once, ever.

    b) ‘You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.’ – Jesus is speaking to his disciples, when have the disciples ever met Muhammed? Seems like a weird saying since Muhammed wasn’t born until AD 570. I would also love to hear how Muslims think that Muhammed lives inside Jesus’ disciples, this is something no Muslim to my knowledge would claim about Muhammed. This is simply an absurd claim, when it clearly makes far more sense to see that the helper is quite clearly the Holy Spirit, just read Acts 1:4-10 and Acts 2:3-4 where this is demonstrated.

    c) ‘to be with you forever’ – Again sorry to point out the obvious but Muhammed isn’t alive any-more, this happened in 632 AD when he was aged 62. So not only was Muhammed not with them then (he wasn’t born yet) he isn’t with us today.

    d) ‘even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him’. – Many people actually saw Muhammed when he was alive because he was a man, so not only could he be seen but he actually was. He also had many converts and friends and several wives. So again the claim falls way short of being a reasonable conclusion.

    I won’t even bother with the claim from song of songs as the case is even weaker than this one, sorry about the essay but just had to expose one of the poor arguments.

    Looking forward to more discussion.

  11. I won’t comment on what Phil has written as he appears to be spot on but on a side issue ‘peace salaam’ mentioned the Gospel of Barnabas..oh dear..another example of Muslims not doing their research. I have many Muslim friends and love discussing these important issues but one thing I often observe are copy and paste arguments from Islamic websites and not sound argument and RESEARCH.

    Why does no Christian use or read this erroneous gospel and why isn’t it in the Bible?

    Well most importantly its universally agreed upon that is a fifteenth century forgery by a Muslim convert from Christianity, the only people that keep bringing it up are Muslims on the internet.
    Hey but who wouldn’t when it says things like this in chapter 112;

    Know, O Barnabas, that for this I must have great persecution, and shall be sold by one of my disciples for thirty pieces of money. Whereupon I am sure that he who shall sell me shall be slain in my name, for that God shall take me up from the earth, and shall change the appearance of the traitor so that every one shall believe him to be me; nevertheless, when he dies an evil death, I shall abide in that dishonour for a long time in the world. But when Muhammad shall come, the sacred Messenger of God, that infamy shall be taken away.

    Seems to good to be true…well that’s because it is. he earliest manuscript evidence for it exist in an Italian manuscript that has been dated by scholars to originate from around the fifteenth century, well over one thousand years after the time of Barnabas. This in itself presents a problem but even more so taking into account its claims that Jesus predicts Muhammed by name.

    - No Muslim writers ever quote from the Gospel of Barnabas prior to the fifteenth century, which is surprising since if it were available I imagine Muslims would have used it as part of their arsenal in refuting Christian claims throughout the centuries, which make it unlikely that it even existed in the form we have today.

    - None of the early Church fathers or leaders quote from the Gospel of Barnabas, which is surprising had it actually been circulating during any of the fifteen hundred years prior to its discovery.

    - There are many internal problems within the text which would build the case for a date much nearer to its discovery which can be easily pointed out since they are so obvious. Such as;

    And then through all the world will God be worshipped, and mercy received, insomuch that the year of jubilee, which now comes every hundred years.. (Gospel of Thomas, Chap 82)

    This exposes the author to a major problem, biblically the year of Jubilee is every 50 years, but in AD 1343 there was a papal decree that briefly changed this to every one hundred years. It shows us that either the author was writing prophetically in anticipation of the papal decree or more likely that he had to be aware of the decree and hence was writing around that time.

    Now back to watching Phil and Islam dawa discuss hehe

  12. Thanks, Cat for your reply to mine (way back now). I do agree with you that the Muslim conception of God is very distinct from the Christian one and I would appeal to Muslims to read the Gospels and see the light of Jesus Christ as our saviour and the son of God.

    I am perfectly at ease with saying that Muslims and Christians disagree and that as a Christian the way to salvation is accepting Jesus as a personal saviour in our life. Muslims object on the basis that God is beyond compare and that God as Infinite cannot become human- but if God is infinite He can do whatever he wants. Why should he choose incarnation in human form? As an expression of love for humanity
    “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” John 3:16

    However, my point is that many Muslims are sincere in their beliefs and their desires to know God. Sincerity is not enough of course and it is a far cry from being suffused with God’s love and having a personal revelation of God’s love for you, of being seized by the holy spirit, a gift available for all who ask. But being a Muslim may be the first step towards such an encounter and I think it is therefore right to say that they believe in God and then appeal for them to go beyond belief to know God and taste his salvation through Christ Jesus.

  13. Or more succintly:
    The Muslim has an idea of God, a distant view built from human conceptions of that beyond comprehension: to know God as a living presence, to participate in the Kingdom of Heaven, is to become Christian.

    “His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. ” 2 Peter 3-4

  14. NJ, thank you for your post.

    Your first point: “Admit or believe there is a God and only one.” I have not said otherwise. There is only one God, this is what all Christians believe.

    Your second statement: As Cat asked – what controversy? The trinity is a core doctrine within Christianity unless you are reading very liberal books/blogs etc. To ignore the argument ignores what Christians believe and the reasons as to why we worship Jesus. Jesus is God, this is why we worship Him. If Jesus was just a man, our faith is worthless, His teaching a lie and it would not be worth Islam agreeing with His teaching either.

    Your third point:
    I’m not just talking about simple contradictions. I’m talking about a completely different message. Jesus says to love your enemies, to forgive those who trespass against you, to give up earthly belongings, to put God before all else and most of all to only believe in him (Jesus). Throughout the gospels Jesus treats women as equals, allowing them to listen to him teach rather than cook. Jesus also practiced what He taught, a perfect example of how we are to live.

    The Qur’an and the Hadiths contain commands from Muhammed to cut of thieves hands, beat women who go against men, women’s testimony is much less than a man’s, men may divorce or marry whoever when the opposite is true for women. Muhammed consistantly lived differently from the laws he laid out for others and even committed acts that would be deemed sinful.

    To say Muhammed went to war only in self defense is not an accurate portrayal of history including that stated in the Qur’an when he went on Jihad. (I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them. …And slay them wherever ye catch them….).

    This difference is not simply because Muhammed was a leader and a prophet, this is an attitude to non-believers (seen throughout the Qur’an) which is completely different from that of Jesus’ teachings. Do you believe God changes? Has God changed since the beginning of time?

    Thank you for your post, I do hope you reply.

  15. Hello Jason, Phil and others who think they have answered to my post.
    I have not taken anything of what I wrote from anyone else. It is what I have found after reading etc. and translating. You have not commented or answered any of the questions I posed to you.

    Jason
    Are these your own words? What does this mean?
    The Muslim has an idea of God, a distant view built from human conceptions of that beyond comprehension:

    My answer: I find it very amusing when Christians tell me that I have a distant view of God. In the Quran itself Allah swa tells us that he is closer to us than or jugular vein. Now, I pray 5 times a day, before every meal remember him, after finishing meal thanking him with gratitude , changing my clothes remember him with sayings of protection and gratitude, entering bathroom, leaving bathroom. without need of any intercession from anyone, no priests because I believe that He is powerful to hear me, see me, know me. Islam is a way of peace and perfection, and a Muslim is a person striving toward that way. A Muslim is working toward peace in the full sense of the word — not just absence of war — peace, meaning wholeness, completeness, being without any defect, without any inadequacy, being perfect, being full. A Muslim is not claiming that he is perfect, but he is striving, struggling within himself and with the society around him, to reach to that goal, to that aim that he has before himself. Islam is a continuous struggle, a continuous work.”

    The greeting Asalaam Alaikum we use every time to greet a Muslim brother or sister. The same greeting Jesus phub used.

    to know God as a living presence, to participate in the Kingdom of Heaven, is to become Christian.

    I don’t know how you as a Christian are already participating in the Kingdom of Heaven?
    As Muslims, we pray 5 times a day, fast, give charity etc. but it is no guarantee that we will go to heaven until we die and stand in front of God. As Christians, my understanding is that you believe you are going to heaven because you believe that Jesus is God? I suppose this is a fundamental difference.

    In Islam our good deeds will be weighed against our bad deeds and that is what decides who goes to heaven. Believing in what Jesus said, doing what he preached and his immaculate conception makes you a Christian? Right, so Muslims do that… we do what Jesus told us to do! Worship One God in Heaven. Give to the poor is obligatory and a minimum fixed amount (not to the church, priests etc. Muslims who give sermons are knowledgeable community members who have regular jobs, there is no hierarchy, clergy etc. ) Believe and wait for his return! I recognize the language you use of salvation, heaven etc. and I recognize them as coined by some churches. I was part of many different congregations and I was always amazed by how every preacher and church had a different practice, way of praying etc. One thing that I always asked myself is how I can know that I am doing enough and what I am actually supposed to be saying in my prayer. Catholics do the rosary. Hail Mary etc I just didnt understand why we should pray to Mary. , other churches say pray with your own words… in Islam we call this dua. That is when you make your own prayer after the obligatory worship. It is just nice to prostrate directly to God at set times, worship Him and be guided.

    (The Spirit as you call it is in the Quran referred to as Ruh and we believe it is Angel Gabriel. )

    Mary and Jesus phub in the Quran: (maybe you have already read this)
    16. Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.
    17. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.18. She said: “I seek refuge from thee to ((Allah)) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah.”19. He said: “Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.20. She said: “How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?”21. He said: “So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, ‘that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us’:It is a matter (so) decreed.”
    22. So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.23. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): “Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!”24. But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): “Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;

    As women we cover our hair for modesty, just like Mary did. It feels nice and liberating not to have to fit into skinny jeans that reveal my figure. Beginning of August is Ramadan (the month in which Quran was revealed). We will then fast from dusk till dawn. It is a special time of devotion. Fasting is a very important, highly spiritual practice that you can go through, along with prayers and devotions at night during the month.

    I wish for you to make a Muslim friend or visit a Muslim family this Ramadan so that you will be less prejudiced because of misconception that Muslims are distant from God and have limited understanding.

    Allah is closer to him (human) than his jugular vein . Quran 50.16 With this knowing and this promise we live everyday. Only He knows what is in our hearts. He only knows our intentions. My intention with this was to clarify some of the misconceptions. I hope I haven’t bored you.

    Kind regards
    AMS

  16. Hello peace salaam. I have not yet answered your post directly, nj and islam have both given big enough responses to keep me busy. I hope to respond properly tomorrow.

    God bless,
    Phil

  17. Hi Schollers!!

    Sorry in a funny mood… Firstly i thought the programm was not all that. There is soo much that could have been done with this to fit the modern world. But it all just seemed to be bashing the modern muslims. iterviews with Jewish teacher, scenes of terrorism amd the satnic verses fiasco…i means whats the point. Thats all now not Mohammeds life or teachings.

    I have a quick question regarding Chrtianity/Islam debate… Didn’t the concept of trinity come to fruitation during the time of constantinople (i think i spelt it correct)? According to QI on the BBC it was and that there is no evidance what so ever regarding the trinity prior to that. Also when Jesus was asked ” ..They say you are the son of god…” Jesus replied “those are your words not mine” Surley he meant no i never said that!

    • Yaz,
      Clear Trinitarian thought is evident in the Old and New Testaments, long before the time of Constantine. It was certainly affirmed by the council of Nicea, and was a major point of controversy around that time – challenged by men like Arius who denied Jesus was god (with beliefs much like a modern Jehovah’s witnesses). Trinitarian theology has often been challenged by greek philosophical views of god that have posited a god of divine attributes but not of personality, community and relationality.

      The very idea that God is love only makes sense if God is Triune – else he is dependent upon creating to have any one to love. Beyond that it’s evident that there is plurality in god in the creation of men and women in Genesis 1 – and arguably we see God, the word and the spirit within the opening paragraphs of that chapter. We see the LORD in heaven and the LORD on earth at Sodom, we see the Angel of the LORD who is distinct from and yet is God on repeated occasions in the Pentateuch, and I could multiply other examples.

      Jesus own reading of the Old Testament claims it to be about him, showing that he is indeed the the Son of the Father, the one who reveals the Triune God to us, making his Father known in the power of the Spirit.

  18. AMS, peace be with you too.

    You write, “I wish for you to make a Muslim friend or visit a Muslim family this Ramadan so that you will be less prejudiced because of misconception that Muslims are distant from God and have limited understanding. ”

    It was not my intention to say anything that you may find offensive, upsetting or prejudicial. As I said in my opening post only God knows the content of people’s hearts. I would be delighted to visit Muslim friends and have done so many times. We are all human beings with limited understanding- our attempts to understand God, the incomprehensible, are all therefore limited and distant. I suppose my comments risked sounding arrogant- but actually we do have different understandings and all we are doing is attempting to discuss them. For me I became a Christian because when I read the New Testament its message seized me and I felt the presence of God. Of course you may feel the same about the Quran which I have read though only in translation (that of course is also true of the Bible).

    I am not condemning your beliefs – I respect them. I think that being a Muslim, one who submits to God if I understand correctly, is to approach God with an honest intention. For me the message of Christianity is one of divine love- it asks us to accept that God became human to participate in our world to allow us to directly experience the power of God, of forgiveness, of love in our lives.

    I as a human being only have a limited finite understanding but through the test of faith, through tasting the fruits of salvation have found myself transported. If we open our hearts to God, if we feel the love He gave, if we pray with an open and sincere mind and dedicate our lives to the service of humanity through loving God, loving myself, loving each and every person as ourselves, even our enemies, then I think we do indeed find peace, salvation and the Kingdom of Heaven, “on earth as it is in heaven.” (Matthew 6:10)

    Thank you for your response. May God’s blessings and love be heaped upon you and all who read these words..

    Jason

  19. AMS
    I am sorry to hear that you reverted to Islam, considering your arguments I would have hoped you would have done some more research before making your decision. I’m not sure if you or your Muslim brothers will respond as I haven’t had any responses to my previous posts. I thought I would post anyway as there are clear fallacies in your argument that I hope to make clear to you.

    You realise Elohim is Hebrew and the New Testament was written in Greek don’t you? You first argument is nonsense.

    I’m not sure where you laid out clearly the books of LAW and of the PROPHETS…but the term Law or the prophets was commonly used as a way of describing the whole of the Torah (Old Testament).

    Matthew 5 vs 17 is a complex passage and I will focus on responding to this as it is from this that the rest of your arguments and statements flow.

    Firstly, there is a historical context of the period that needs to be understood that will also require looking around other passages in the bible. The spiritual leaders of the time (the Pharisees) were stuck in a tradition of oral law which often became equally binding to the laws of the Torah. These laws were all about rituals and making sure the person appeared clean before other men as clean and righteous. Jesus calls them on this in Matthew 23:1-38 by saying, “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and self-indulgence”. Jesus calls his disciples in Matthew 5:20 to go beyond the righteousness of the Pharisees and teachers of the law showing that there is more to being righteous than those following the laws.

    Secondly, in the context of the sermon on the mount (Matthew 5) Jesus was teaching new laws in response to the Old Testament – “You have heard…but I say to you”. This was Jesus showing that His words and teaching had a higher priority over the sacred traditions and laws put upon the society of the day by the religious teachers and is confirmed in Matt. 24:35 – “Heaven and earth will pass away but my words will never pass away”.

    So in the context of the text and history, Jesus was coming to fulfil the law, not abolish it. He was coming as was predicted by the Old Testament prophets as He led a sinless life that kept all of God’s commands. An impossibility by mere man – man is never able to reach God’s standards. So while Jesus fulfils the law, we abide by Jesus teaching but do not teach others to break the Old Testament law. An analogy I’ve read is as follows:

    The Old Testament is represented by an old house and the New Testament is a new house. The old has not been destroyed by Christ but instead, Christ builds an extension on the same foundation as the old. Christians live in the new house but are about to move about in the old and admire, reflect on and be edified by the old but are not held in. Though this analogy is flawed, it does show that Christians do interact with the Old Testament laws but are not held by them as Jesus fulfilled the law by being the ultimate sacrifice.

    I hope that makes sense, I more thorough explanation (mine is a summary of this) can be found on a site here: How Jesus Christ fulfills the Old Testament

    On a side note about Jesus’ baptism, the bible doesn’t say Jesus needed to get baptised but the whole story is an awesome picture of Jesus interacting with His Father (‘This is my son with whom I am well pleased” etc.) and thus actually blows your first argument about Jesus not having a father out of the water.

    I have already responded to your argument about Parakletos in my post to Islam as has Daniel in his response to you. This is an unfounded argument which takes verses and words out of context and one which is propagated around the internet. Please do respond to Daniel as I won’t be repeating his arguments.

    Please do more research, there is far more truth in the bible and there is great evidence for Jesus being God – the argument that Jesus did not die on the cross is unfounded and copied from an apocryphal text which was written several hundred years after all the other gospels. Muhammed taught laws that he broke, he had little respect for women and his ethics were not ones that I would want to follow. I do hope you continue your search for truth, because God is love and wants you to have a relationship with him through Jesus who is the way, the truth, the life and no one gets to the father (God) except through him.

    God bless,

    Phil

  20. I think Phil’s points are interesting and well researched. To me though the heart of the matter is that when we are seeking to awaken an encounter with Christ to our Muslim brothers and sisters we should acknowledge that someone becomes Muslim or stays Muslim because of an intention to know God and we should share our experience of God through Christ. The Muslim sister or brother may choose to listen to our words, choose to eat from our offerings or not. Either way we treat her or him with respect and love.

    This is just how I see it. I am no theologian. I am merely a servant of Christ who has become free and ecstatically delighted without end as a child of God in His cleansing blood, in His sacrifice, in His salvation and His splendour.

    To my understanding the point of Christ is that God has become human to take on our suffering and cleanse our sins

    “For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,” 1 Peter 3:18

    The new covenant means that we enter into a personal relationship with God, our Father and through Divine love, love all humanity.

    Jesus fulfils the law but makes it clear that the underpinning fundamental principle is one of love, forgiveness and not passing judgement. “Judge not that you be not judged.” Matthew 7 1
    Luke 6: 37 “”Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.”

    It is the knowledge that God loves us, that set a fire in us and that keeps us and sustains us through everything. I too deserve to be loved. So I will dedicate my life to God and spreading His Love.

    “31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:
    “For your sake we face death all day long;
    we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”[a]

    37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[b] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

    Romans 8 31-39
    Finally one of the most astonishing and wonderful passages in the Bible, John 8 2-11
    ” 2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

    But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

    9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

    11 “No one, sir,” she said.

    “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

    Christianity is about living in freedom, the freedom of knowing that you are loved by God and already saved, already living in the Kingdom of Heaven and that this message and salvation is open to all who ask. It is about experiencing God’s mercy and love in every heart beat and breath.

  21. Dear Phil
    Thank you for your concern for me. I have done alot of research (not just for the sake of arguing out to reach to what I believe is the truth). It is never disturbing when people bash Islam, this is because they are ignorant and want to believe that which suits them best. it is not their religion or way of life, they don’t know it and therefore they are not at blame. However, it is very disturbing when those who call themselves Christians don’t know their own religion or re invent it in order to add up all the things that ( i have lost count of how many) sects and diversions practice. Jesus phub came to fullfill the law. The whole analogy about the old and the new house/testament is yet another man made thing to justify what the churches do today. If the old law had not been abolished but fullfilled you would find that what you believe and practice and what I believe and practice are two very very similar things. The reason why Islam seems so ‘foreign’ to you is because you are missing the first bit…the bits that Jesus phub came to fulfill that were instead Abolished. That is why the Jewish practice is very very similar to Muslim practice today. Instead Christianity is left with gaps is how I saw and still see it today. Everyone prays differently, has different practices, man written songs, orchestras, saints, fast/not fast. etc etc etc. See when I was christian and going from church to church wondering how I could dedicate my life to living the way God wanted me to live i reasoned like this: If God is the most Almighty, Merciful, able to do all things why would he leave us to be lost wandering among these different groups of so called Christians? If he created us to worship Him he must have told us how. Why should I sit there every time and make up my own words? Am I saying it right? Should I kneel should I stand, Should I sing songs with orchestras made up by men? Should I clap and jump? is that what all the prophets have said we should do? Or should I become a nun? Is that how i get to know Him? To be honest I didn’t even know that it was part of the Christian doctrine to believe that Jesus was god until I visited one of those ‘charismatic’ churces. And they didn’t even mention God. They were only calling on Jesus all the time. When I actually learnt that that is the belief is when I knew something was off.

    Jesus phub performed many miracles.

    Another unr esearched thing and the common bashing is that of treatment of women in Islam. You Phil also state that women were treated wrongly in Islam. Now I can tell you that my husband takes the example of Muhammad pbuh and is the husband and father better than I could have ever imagined or prayed for for myself. where do I begin? How did he treat women so wrongly? Women are treated like the queens and mothers of all Muslims. They raise all the children and that is why it is often said that when you manage to corrupt the women you have got the whole society corrupted. If you are talking about the veil then know that it is the choice of every woman to wear it or not. It enables me to leave my beauty for me and my husband, practice modesty and actually protect me. in the quran it is written that women should cover themselves so as to be left in peace. And this is so true. Men never look at covered up ladies and especially the ones with hijab and undress them with their eyes. They actually know what this means! Hm, this lady is not going home with you! In the bible it says that women should cover their hair. Mary covered her hair. Christian nuns cover their hair, their arms and don’t wear tight clothing. Is holiness only for some? No, it is for all. Mary is the most pious, respected woman in Islam. She is the only woman that has a whole surah named after her. Surah 19 called Maryam. In The muslim community here I don’t know of a single man who has more than one wife. Why? Because most men believe in keeping their chastity with one. The reason why you are allowed to have more than one wife is to avoid that which is happening in the society at large: Men dont keep to their one wife but have ”girlfriends” on the side. These women have NO rights to claim support even though these men are sleeping with them should they get pregnant and the children born have often no relation or knowledge of who their father is. Therefore, if a man is ever to desire a relationship with any other woman he is to marry her and make known to everyone that she is his responsibilty and that he ought to treat her Equally like the other woman. THat means equal provision, time division etc. A man can only have a second wife if the first wife approves of this and so he has to discuss the matter with her. It is just simply to avoid what is so common today which is infidelity. Very, very few men choose to do this as it is said that whosoever does not treat his wives equally will come as a cripple on the day of judgement and there is a huge sin for this.

    And among His signs is this,that He has Created for you mates from amongst yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquility with them; and he has put love and mercy between you. Verily, in that are signs for those who reflect. Q 30:21

    They are your garment and you are a garment for them Q2:187

    Verified hadith (what the prophet said) : The good among you are the ones that are good to their wives.

    Prophet Muhammad phub was married to Khadija for nearly 30 years. The other women he married were widowed and at the time and age that was the way to protect them. Again, if you are really keen to actually know his life and explanations to everything you could find out from respectable sources.

    Another thing that many wonder is why women are in the back during congregational prayer..that is simply to avoid men staring at our butts, women avoiding to parade in front of them and being distracted. nothing else. Both men and women are encouraged to lower their gazes (i.e. not check out other men and women that are not their wives/husbands) as even the eyes commit zinaa (illegal desire, the hands, the legs etc. so just by desiring with your eyes you are sinning) . I believe that in synagogues it is very much the same. Also, their women cover hair as well but interestingly they cover the hair with wigs.

    About your worry for me reverting to Islam.
    Jesus does not refer to God as Father and you can research on this yourself. If you really want to know and not just for the sake of argument. Otherwise, don’t worry about me. I am doing everything that Jesus phub told us to do. I am not doing anything that he didn’t. I am praying to God, giving money to the poor (not the church for their gold or robes, preachers for their new bentleys etc) as there is no hierarchy or priesthood or anyone who collects money to preach the word of God. My relationship with God I have to say has improved. I address him directly in my prayers, once at dawn, noon, afternoon, dusk and before bed time so it is pretty personal. The regular prayers make sure that I spent significant time every day. It is just a part of life. It is a way of life and it just fuels you to then be able to live your life and do things that you are actually here to do. Which is probably not to write endless pages like these about it but more earn your living, do what you are called to, do charity work, smiling at someone., working for a better afterlife.

    Even if you seem to learn enough about Islam to be able to argue about it I really really would like to ask you to ask practicing Muslims to answer your questions. I know you said that you had friends who are Muslims but you don’t seem to have asked them any questions. Are they practicing Muslims?

    We cannot be Muslims if we don’t believe in Jesus we love him and believe that he was one of the most amazing messengers sent from God. The reason he will never be god for me is because; God was not begotten and He existed before time. Jesus was begotten and had a birth from which he started to exist. . Jesus phub was in the womb and born. God cannot be born, but Jesus was born. God had no beginning but Jesus had a beginning. Jesus phub never said ‘I am God’ they way you state that he is. When you put the saying first there was the word and the word became flesh. It is true, because God said be and it was. Mary conceived. He came to deliver a message and those who believe and practice what he said shall have eternal life. This is what muslims do.

    If you pick and choose verses you can have the bible say anything you want it to. However if you read the bible as a holistic thing and read Gods characteristics and descriptions of Himself and where Jesus describes God it becomes clear that God is One. Furthermore, no man has seen God at any time. This is stated in the bible But people have seen Jesus.

    Jesus did not build his own church and say worship me. He went to the temple and worshiped God the same way that Moses, Abraham and David did. The first followers who believed that Jesus was their prophet were Jews who still continued to pray and worship as before. Something like 300 years later did the council of bishops agree on a doctrine and making trinity part of it. That was Paul the apostle I believe, who never met Jesus, never sat with him never ate with him. Who claimed he had a vision. Other reasons, that Jesus is not God is the fact that he was in need of prayer, prostrating with his face on the ground (in church you don’t prostrate anymore? I th) he was in need of someone who is greater than him. If we needed to pray to him for salvation shouldn’t he have made that clear? Shouldn’t he have said you need to pray to me and ‘I don’t need to pray to anyone’?

    Overall there are implicit and explicit statements in the bible. if you take the explicit statement in john 17 ; 3 I believe. That they may know you as One True God and Jesus Christ whom you sent.

    God does not change. If he was always One before Jesus phub as was stated by all the prophets before him why would he suddenly change and go over to being 3 and change the whole method of salvation? I believe that He is very consistent throughout. And that is why the trinity is not something that is the main message in the bible and in fact not the message of the bible.

    The last point I will make to Jason about salvation and already being saved by believing that Jesus is god and why that is not logical and doesn’t work:Anders Behring Breivik who shot all those people in Norway two days ago is a Christian who believes in salvation of Christ. Is he saved already then?

    I usually don’t like to point out differences. I know that media doesn’t tell you this but what we really want is to live in peace. Islam is a word that originates from the word Salaam which means peace. Muslim means the one who submits to God. We are not going out converting anyone. To be honest, it feels like we are talking to a wall whenever we repeat this because it is not in the interest of general public, whether Christian, atheist or other. As written in the Quran there is no compulsion in religion. YOu worship your god and let us worship ours. I would never go that far to say that you as christians are distant to any god or anything though and that is what you have said Jason and these are your words. One thing for sure is that we as Muslims are obliged to seek Knowledge. To question and to learn and to find out reasons why how and when. I hope you do the same with yours and maybe maybe you have learnt something.

    Also, someone else wrote that Muslim women are only there to cook or similar. Again, insults work great. I will never ever understand why in the west it is repeated over and over that women are liberated and muslim women are enslaved. As I said, go down to your local mosque and speak to any married man about his wife’s rights as I really cannot repeat and repeat anymore.

    Overall, I have found this conversation to be quiet fruitless and leading nowhere. We can just conclude that you are happy in your life and I am happy with mine. It would be nice if you weren’t so prejudiced about Muslims or knew what Islam teaches so that you didn’t feel fear or pity when you meet one.

    As I have read the bible, met priests, been to churches I think it is only fair that you visit a masjid. I am sure they have an open day once a year. That way you will learn what we actually believe.

    Now I would like to excuse myself from this blog
    Salaams
    AMS

  22. Dear AMS
    Peace and blessing upon you too

    You asked me one question so I hope to answer that in a moment.

    Before that I want to comment on this:
    “Overall, I have found this conversation to be quiet fruitless and leading nowhere. We can just conclude that you are happy in your life and I am happy with mine. It would be nice if you weren’t so prejudiced about Muslims or knew what Islam teaches so that you didn’t feel fear or pity when you meet one. ”

    I’m sorry you are feeling that the conversation is fruitless.

    I am not so sure because an honest conversation aimed at truth is never fruitless and even if it just enables you to think more deeply and love more then it has fruit. I am indeed happy as an adherent of Christ and a worshipper of God and all I have sought to do is share my joy. You must find your own answers and that much is clear- I wish every blessing and help along the way and respect and love you and my fellow human beings.

    I do not fear Muslims- of course not. I hope I am not prejudiced towards you at all. I think your words were directed at others. Even so a difference of opinion is not necessarily the same as fear or prejudice.

    Now on to your direct question.

    “The last point I will make to Jason about salvation and already being saved by believing that Jesus is god and why that is not logical and doesn’t work:Anders Behring Breivik who shot all those people in Norway two days ago is a Christian who believes in salvation of Christ. Is he saved already then?”

    That is a difficult and necessary question. Necessary because self-professed Christians have done much harm in the world- imperialists, genocidists, slave-owners, racists and pogromists have all been avowedly committed Christians. Only God knows the contents of someone’s heart but it is clear that hatred, fascism, Islamophobia, murder and the rest are great crimes. There are many hypocrites in this world. Much hatred has been preached in the name of the church. Some so-called Christians murder gay people. Some self-avowed Christians carry out ethnic cleansing and genocide. Real Christians need to fight for justice and stand firmly against hatred, racism and injustice.

    By tasting God, by worshipping Him with all our heart, by being in personal relationship to Him as Father, we know we are saved because we are in God and of God.

    Of course if someone says this and then kills presumably s/he is either lying or deluded. God will forgive sins, even those of the most heinous kind, no doubt but only He knows the content of our hearts and only He can judge the sinner (we can all judge and condemn the sin).

    Of course you may think it is arrogant to think I am saved. You would be right if I thought it was though my own efforts. No. It is because I am consumed by God. I have sinned. I will continue to sin in the flesh but the Spirit sets me free. I may indeed through knowing the suffering my actions have caused have great pain- but I also have greater joy, joy beyond account. Overall there is great pain in life- we should stand shoulder to shoulder against injustice and hatred including the hatred of fascists like Anders and others.

    I would be delighted to take up your offer of attending a mosque, masjid on an open day or any other time. Every day is a test. As it says in 1 Corinthians:
    “10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. ”

    I am confident of salvation even if there are still great trails and fires ahead. Overall there is joy and ecstasy and heaven in believing in and loving God and knowing that I am loved, of joy everlasting and beyond compare.

    From Psalm 45
    ” A sceptre of justice will be the sceptre of your kingdom.
    7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
    therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
    by anointing you with the oil of joy.
    8 All your robes are fragrant with myrrh and aloes and cassia;
    from palaces adorned with ivory
    the music of the strings makes you glad. ”

    Let us walk together in this joy, let us unceasingly oppose hatred, ignorance and injustice, instead practice love and compassion and let God bless us with His never-ending unquenchable Love.

  23. One additional point:
    “Everyone prays differently, has different practices, man written songs, orchestras, saints, fast/not fast. etc etc etc. See when I was christian and going from church to church wondering how I could dedicate my life to living the way God wanted me to live i reasoned like this: If God is the most Almighty, Merciful, able to do all things why would he leave us to be lost wandering among these different groups of so called Christians? If he created us to worship Him he must have told us how. Why should I sit there every time and make up my own words? Am I saying it right? Should I kneel should I stand, Should I sing songs with orchestras made up by men? Should I clap and jump? is that what all the prophets have said we should do?”

    Why not worship Him as the heart directs? There is nothing wrong with ceremony or set prayers or rules of course. But the rules should not rule us. Our heart and our love should rule.

    As Jesus Himself said: ““‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[b] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’[c] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

    This whole passage from Matthew is instructive because men ruled by the Law could not see what was in front of them the Messiah who was Lord. They attempted to trick Him with earthly logic, logic of the flesh, whereas being ruled by the Spirit, by faith and Love reveals to us the answers we need.

    Matthew 22: 23-45

    23 That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. 24 “Teacher,” they said, “Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up offspring for him. 25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26 The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27 Finally, the woman died. 28 Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”
    29 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’[a]? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

    33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching.

    The Greatest Commandment
    34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
    37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[b] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’[c] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

    Whose Son Is the Messiah?
    41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?”
    “The son of David,” they replied.

    43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,

    44 “‘The Lord said to my Lord:
    “Sit at my right hand
    until I put your enemies
    under your feet.”[d]

    45 If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?”

  24. AMS, I apologise for any offence caused. My points about Islam are in response to what I have read of the Qur’an and Muhammeds teachings and are reasons why I could not follow it. This is not a personal attack on you or your family but me applying the same methods as to why I am a Christian to the Qur’an and if the Qur’an cannot stand up to the same critique then it cannot claim to be the truth.

    You have accused me of picking and choosing passages in the bible to make it say anything I want – this is a ridiculous accusation as you then focus on one single verse out of context. I have given whole passages and responded to arguments and you have ignored them and claimed I have not used respectable sources. I used the bible – whole chapters and verses.

    Your argument about different denominations does not make sense, what about all the various ways of following Muhammed? Who is doing it right or wrong? Just looking at the Middle Eastern conflicts shows that Muslims are just as much in disagreement as Christians – this is why Jesus is so important. He is a perfect image of who God is!

    To bring up Norway as a point against Christianity is actually shooting yourself in the foot AMS. I’m sure we could both agree Anders Behring Breivik did not follow Jesus teaching. I am sure you would hate me to bring up all the violence done in the name of Muhammed as an argument against your faith.

    In response to your statements about women in Islam. Is it really your choice? You have to stand at the back so men can’t look at your butts? It seems a bizarre idea of honour that the women have to do all the rituals to protect the man. Why can’t the men take responsibility for where they look? I don’t mean to be flippant, and Muslim men are often very respectful and for the majority I’m sure treat their wives like queens – for this is how it should be – but the laws laid out for women are far more strict for the protection of man than vice versa. This may be your choice now but this wasn’t always the case. Muhammed is even quoted as saying that a women’s testimony is worth less than a man’s.

    I would agree this is fairly fruitless, especially that you are accusing me of not researching or talking to Muslims – even second guessing other Muslims. But thats ok, I’ve got thick skin. If you do return I’ll be up for some more discussion, I’ve given you a few questions but as I’m on holiday tomorrow I’ll respond to any responses when I get back.

    God bless,

    Phil

  25. I finally got to watch this program or at least the final part and will look out for the repeat or episodes on iplayer.

    I think it was a reasonably well made program that was interesting and makes me want to know more about this time and society, the spread of Islam and why it took hold.

    The other context is that we live in an international culture where powerful elites demonise Islam and Muslims are stereotyped, scapegoated and targeted. A Christian response to this program cannot ignore this wider social context.

    That is why I think we need to make it explicit that we respect Muslims, are ready to defend their human rights and dignity as human beings and love them. That is clearly consistent with disagreeing with them. I am not a Muslim and am not obliged therefore to agree with Islam. I do not think Muhammad had a special revelation from God and there are many aspects of the Qur’an with which I disagree. However, from a Christian perspective we can also I feel emphasise what we do have in common- a belief in God, a belief in peace, mutual respect and the brotherhood of humanity, a passion for social justice and the abolition of poverty. So that is why in the end I do not think it useful or accurate to say Muslims do not believe in the same God. There is one God the Creator of the universe, the infinite power from which we all came. Islam is an attempt by thinking men and women to understand our world. Beyond that my claim and that of fellow Christians and our invitation is to know God through Jesus Christ by taking seriously His advice,
    ““‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind….And… ‘Love your neighbour as yourself.’ ”
    Matthew 22 37-38
    That is Christianity and that is a high demand- to enter into a personal relationship with God and turn our lives upside down in the radical love and demand for justice of loving our neighbours as ourselves, our Muslim neighbours as well, and loving our enemies, even loving racists and perpetrators of hatred whilst opposing racism and hatred, spreading love, justice, freedom and equality. That is what God demands. There is no higher mission than this. It is a foundation on which to build our lives. It is an offer of a personal relationship with God open to all who take up this offer.

    • Jason,
      Thanks for your comment. I certainly agree that we should respect and love our Muslim neighbours. I don’t think there should be hatred or racism. However I dont think its wrong for me to say that we worship a different God. The problem is, is that you define God as Creator God, which is right as an attribute but thats not his essence, its not who he is. The Christian God who has been revealed to us in the bible and through history is the relational God, the Trinity – Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And we worship this God who is 3 persons who has been like this through the NT and OT and for eternity. Now lets compare this with Allah who Muslims worship – would Muslims say that Allah is Trinity? Would Muslims say that Allah has a Son who is Jesus? Would Muslims say that Allah is a community of love between a Father and His Son through the Holy Spirit which spills out into the world? I am guessing not…find me a Muslim that believes this, then we can say we have the same God…But I dont think you will. And you are right, there is only One God… my point is that the One God and only God is the trinity – the Father, Son and Holy Spirit…

  26. This program is dissapointing :
    1) it is a totally one sided opinion of one Muslim journalist whose view of Islam was already formed.
    2) there are valid questions about Islams that were not properly discussed. Islams’ critics, like Trefkovic, R Spencer and Nonie Darwish, have been given not more than 10 seconds airtime. This program seemed more like a forum for pro-Islam speakers.
    3) IT is a reflection of how Muslims maintain their belief:: by accepting Islam uncritically.
    It is a shame that it has to be aired by a publicly funded broadcaster like the BBC.

  27. It did at least give a little airtime to critics- outnumbered though these were in air minutes by Muslims. But then I don’t think it is wrong to have a program made by a Muslim about Islam anymore than a program by a Christian, any other faith, agnostic or atheist. It wasn’t a very deep program but an introduction. It was OK as a starter, a taster I thought.

  28. The were various assumptions in the three programmes about Mohammed. These included:
    1. There actually is a god called Allah, just as Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Indians, Chinese, ancient Britons, etc also claimed the reality of their own gods. And Jesus claimed he was the son of a a/the only god.
    2. Mohammed’s claims that what has become the Koran came from this god, and were not part of a long term political and military strategy invented by him, one to enable Mohammed to pursue his personal power seeking path that led to him dominating Arabia.
    3. That the so-called “sources” for most of what was said to be true in the programmes are provable, and not little more than folk lore or written – like the Hadiths – by others long after Mohammed’s death.

    Almost all religions are based on doing good to others, being honest and truthful, being moral – but that does not need belief in any extraterrestrial god or being made a Muslim, Jew, Christian, etc just days after one’s birth – just common decency.

    Nor does belief in a god need a religion to back up that belief. What religion does do is to assume to give answers to things we do not currently know the answers to; to give solace in times of war, death, famine, etc; and to enable those seeking to control the lives of others to do so by using some unearthly, unprovable, undeniable source of authority.

    No one needs religion, or belief, but those running religions need believers. Otherwise their sources of income would dry up, and they would have to find employment elsewhere.

    The question should not be “The same God?” but why does anyone think that
    supernatural beings exist, have ever existed, or why they should.

    Books are not written by these gods, but by people who can write, and in their own languages and with their own vocabularies from their own times. Gods have never spoken Goddish, strangely they have spoken Greek, Latin, Norse, Hindi, sixth and seventh century Arabic, even English. The so-called Pagan gods in Mecca spoke Arabic.

    It was these fundamentals that were missing from “The Life of Mohammed”. And that does not take a genius to ask why.

  29. I don’t see how they can be the same God, unless He is schizophrenic, when one teaches love for all and the other teaches love for members only and hatred for everyone else. One says everyone is equal and the other days that people have different values dependent on what they believe and their gender. One says don’t commit adultery, and the other allows men to keep women as sex slaves. One says do not steal, and the other says stealing from your enemies it okay. One says do not kill and the other says do not kill unless it is to spread the religion. One regards marriage as two becoming one, and the other regards marriage as a trasaction in which ownership of a woman is transferred. One says religion and politics should be separate, the other says they are one and the same. There are so many incompatibilities there is absolutely no way they are the same.

  30. @ Marvin T

    It is pretty evident that al you talked about is knowledge gained from the media. No real attempt has been made by you as to research any of your claims; in light of this, there’s no point responding to people who are as ignorant to believe EVERYTHING the media tells them. In this modern age, that is the ultimate stupidity.

    @ Morena thabo

    “and not little more than folk lore or written – like the Hadiths – by others long after Mohammed’s death.”

    Actually, the hadiths were the prophets teachings, so your claim that they came from someone else long after his death is just glorious and shows commendably how much you actually know of the religion you wish to criticize.

    If you want to be prejudiced, at least do some research before you comment. Otherwise, you just come across looking like a belligerent fool.

    @ All

    No, I’m not a Muslim or Christian, but I know enough about both to know when I come across ignorant fools who choose to express themselves when they know (or have researched) Jack-all!

    One of the Muslims (can‘t remember his/her name), said they have gone to churches and talked to priests (I think he was a convert/revert), can anyone else here say the same thing?

    @ Christians

    It clearly says in the bible that Jesus came for the Jews, so unless your Jews, how can you worship him and form a religion out from him? He clearly did not come here for you.

    Secondly, Jews themselves say Christianity has become a somewhat polytheistic religion by asking and basing your prayers to Jesus or the holy-Mary; having idols in their churches.

    These are rhetorical questions, I won’t be present for any answers. It’s there for you to reflect upon yourselves and ponder.

    You quote the bible as your ultimate proof, but the bible has been changed many times since it’s conception. Namely by emperor Constantine who wanted Rome to become Christian, but because of their strong beliefs in polytheism and knowing they will never convert willingly into Christianity, he along with other bishops changed the bible to make it more acceptable to the pagans. That is a fact no one can argue, so please don’t even try. This has been done many times to the bible, but that event is the one that resides in my mind. If the bible is gods word, then who are humans to decide to change it so it fits better with their way of life?

    Again, these are rhetorical questions, I won’t be present for any answers. It’s there for you to reflect upon yourselves and ponder.

    It seems this blog has become infested by the chavs of society and I have no patience for talking to the illiterate or ill-informed (they‘ll prove my point later, maybe. To them, thank you).

    To take the word of someone else in this day and age (when information is at your finger tips) is just pure ignorance and there will never be any hop for humanity to unite!

    Peace to all!

    • Unbeliever, thank you for your comment. Its quite sad that you won’t wait for a response and makes me think that you are not interested in thinking these things through yourself and or be willing to listen to what Christians have to say about this. When you are willing to listen to some answers, perhaps we can have a conversation.

      No idea who the “Chavs” are or what you mean by “Chav”. No one here is illiterate or ill-informed , I think thats quite a rude thing to say, especially from someone who won’t stick around for any answers!!

  31. PS

    You say they are not the same god, but Jews believe it is the same god in both religions. And they also believe they are more closely related to the Muslim faith. Considering Jesus was here for the Jews and not anyone else, your claim they are not the same god seems to be fitting.

    Peace and hope for humanity!

  32. Hmm… Pretty big and interesting blog.

    I concur with Unbeliever. The bible has been changed too many times, namely by Constantine. I think it’s around that time when statues started appearing in churches so he could get the pagans of Rome onboard and for them to convert and accept Christianity more easily.

    I think it is also around this time that he added Joseph to be with the Virgin Mary. Again, to convince the pagans. If the Virgin Mary had no man in her life, they would have called her a whore and would have argued “how can we follow the son of a…”

    She originally had no man and the birth was a miracle, but if Joseph is with her, then how can she be a virgin?
    So that’s why that part was changed. This can all be verified through some thorough research.

    Jesus is quoted saying something on the lines of, “Oh heavenly father, why have you forsaken me?” He apparently said this when on the crucifix. Why would a prophet of god or more importantly, the son of god be saying such a thing when he’s supposedly dying for the “sins of humanity?”

    The Vatican has all ancient scrolls of Christianity hidden safely in its vaults. Why aren’t they made public? Why don’t Christians demand that they be shown to them? After all, it is your religion and shouldn‘t you be trying to get to the bottom of it.

    Out of the three main monotheistic religions, it’s only Christianity that hides it’s scriptures from the public. The question is why?

    You either be ignorant and don’t ask any questions of them or you challenge what they’re hiding. You have the right to know.

    You might find the following video helpful in relation to having the same god or not (the video is by a Jew):

    If you can’t watch the whole clip, then watch it form around 6 minutes.

    You may also find the following video helpful:

    IMORTANT NOTE: I am not Christian, Muslim or Jew. But I respect all three religions. What I said above about the Virgin Mary (Whore), that wasn’t meant to be offensive, I was speaking as a third person from Rome. So please forgive me if you thought that to be disrespectful, it wasn‘t my intention.

    The following link is by a Christian on Christianity:

    http://islamicislamic.com/priest_converted.htm

    The following is of a famous priest around the time of Islam:

    http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/88651

    I haven’t converted to any religion, but after some further study, I may choose…

  33. The following was missed out:

    “You might find the following video helpful in relation to having the same god or not (the video is by a Jew):
    If you can’t watch the whole clip, then watch it form around 6 minutes.”

    The above was meant to be a youtube link there, but I don’t think it’s permissible. Just go to youtube and type “A Jewish Man Teaches Christians About Allah! Very Interesting”

    The link should be the first video or the third with a gent wearing a violet/purple shirt.

    Please try to watch it and let us know what you think.

  34. This is all lovely but so unhealthily certain. If you accept that god cannot communicate directly with man but needs an intermediary of lesser magnificence such as an angel to enable the limited beings that we are to even receive a direct message. If you then concede that we are limited creatures and will understand the magnificence of the word of god at the limit of the boundaries of our understanding. That those boundaries are made by our experience of and place in society, a society much of which we know god regards as corrupted and is therefore a limitation on our ability to receive fully the word of god without distortion and will by the very nature of this limitation corrupt the word. Then go on to understand that the limitations of language must further reduce the accuracy and definition of the word. Accept, however reluctantly that that the authors, transcribers or approvers of such words, will limit the message in so far as it may be seen to contradict accepted social or political understanding, perhaps deliberately so as to enable acceptance on what could otherwise be interpreted as heresy. And here we have it, not quite a paradox as the word of god would only seem to contradict the word of god as the recording of the word is the source of contradiction. All faiths need to accept that the word they live by is flawed. It is not god that is flawed, nor, by the standards of mankind the prophets, nor by the place in the social development of man as a creature in the great universe the society that received the word. Our fault is in placing too great a stricture on an individual revelation. Our understanding is being guided by god we are simply urged to beware the false prophet a difficult task. Otherwise we should look at the words given us by the prophets together. Also remember we are not god, if 100 prophets are being chosen as I write and each receive the same word from one of 100 angels and they understand the word given according to their place in their society and their understanding of what they receive, then we would have 100 different and brand new testaments of the word of god. They would all be valid and as accurate as could be and would give apparent contradictions among themselves and to those tenets we live by today.
    But you know this. It is the voice of the child within demanding obvious sense from the adults around them. The child yet knowing that they will not listen but stay fixed to their high places of self interest or stubborn declaration.

  35. Hmm… Pretty big and interesting blog.

    I concur with Unbeliever. The bible has been changed too many times, namely by Constantine. I think it’s around that time when statues started appearing in churches so he could get the pagans of Rome onboard and for them to convert and accept Christianity more easily.

    I think it is also around this time that he added Joseph to be with the Virgin Mary. Again, to convince the pagans. If the Virgin Mary had no man in her life, they would have called her a… and would have argued “how can we follow the son of a…”

    She originally had no man and the birth was a miracle, but if Joseph is with her, then how can she be a virgin?
    So that’s why that part was changed. This can all be verified through some thorough research.

    Jesus is quoted saying something on the lines of, “Oh heavenly father, why have you forsaken me?” He apparently said this when on the crucifix. Why would a prophet of god or more importantly, the son of god be saying such a thing when he’s supposedly dying for the “sins of humanity?”

    The Vatican has all ancient scrolls of Christianity hidden safely in its vaults. Why aren’t they made public? Why don’t Christians demand that they be shown to them? After all, it is your religion and shouldn‘t you be trying to get to the bottom of it.

    Out of the three main monotheistic religions, it’s only Christianity that hides it’s scriptures from the public. The question is why?

    You either be ignorant and don’t ask any questions of them or you challenge what they’re hiding. You have the right to know.

    I posted some interesting links, but they were deleted by the moderators. It seems those links were too compelling arguments to come back from. Without those links I haven’t got a leg to stand on, so I too beg this blogs leave.

    Peace!

  36. Unbeliever – ‘You quote the bible as your ultimate proof, but the bible has been changed many times since it’s conception. Namely by emperor Constantine who wanted Rome to become Christian, but because of their strong beliefs in polytheism and knowing they will never convert willingly into Christianity, he along with other bishops changed the bible to make it more acceptable to the pagans.’

    I think perhaps you have taken the Da Vinci code a little too seriously, rather than internet blogs do you perhaps have some references and examples of what exactly Constantine changed? You are aware that the deity of Jesus had already been accepted for hundreds of years prior to the Council of Nicea in 325, only a few years after the persecution of Christians had been effectively ended after the edict of Milan in 313. Did you want to argue that Christians after suffering for many years were willing to give up so easily the beliefs they had just been suffering for so long? Even secular sources acknowledge from the first century acknowledge Christians expressing the self-same doctrines that are said to have been changed by Constantine. You should perhaps do a little more research before you attempt to enlighten us on Christianity.

    ‘It seems this blog has become infested by the chavs of society and I have no patience for talking to the illiterate or ill-informed (they‘ll prove my point later, maybe. To them, thank you).’

    That seems like a rather inappropriate assumption to make, but I sense some New Atheist rhetoric in your tone so it wouldn’t come as much of a surprise if this were the case.

    Seeker of the Truth – ‘The Vatican has all ancient scrolls of Christianity hidden safely in its vaults. Why aren’t they made public? Why don’t Christians demand that they be shown to them? After all, it is your religion and shouldn‘t you be trying to get to the bottom of it.’

    How do you know the Vatican has secret scrolls in its vault? You can’t expect to be taken seriously if your basing your arguments on foundation-less myths. There are archives like a museum and in fact just this month you may read – http://www.cathnewsusa.com/2011/07/vatican-to-open-secret-archives-for-unprecedented-exhibit/

    There’s no conspiracy, if you would rather accept the intellectual rigour of Dan Browns book of fiction that’s fine but this is probably the wrong place to express it.

    I have some good Muslim friends who do their research about Christianity and try their best to stop other Muslims from using bad arguments and misrepresenting Christianity, I know many Christians often do that with Islam which is why I read the Koran and the Hadiths for myself. Its difficult to have serious discussions when people bring in wild conspiracy theories when 30 mins in a library will deal quite sufficiently with it.

    I watched both videos, even 99% of Christians ignore what Pat Robertson has to say, it would be like me using a video of Osama bin Laden [except Robertson isn't a terrorist] it adds nothing to the discussion here other than reinforcing your bias’s.

    The other video added little either, I’ve never thought Allah referred to a Arabic moon God and neither have most Christians. Allah was used as the generic term for God way before Islam, even Muhammad’s father was called ‘Abd Allah’.

  37. @ Dan Roger

    The movie aside, are you seriously saying the bible has never been changed? It’s been changed, that’s why Jews don’t credit it that much and refer to it as a polytheistic religion. What I said wasn’t heresy, it’s fact that can be ascertained by yourself thorough reputable sources. These so called facts are just being denied by you, leaving us to go round in circles. I’m sorry I can’t provide actual links to strengthen my argument, I researched this a very long time ago (AND I WAS VERY THOROUGH).

    Conveniently, you ignored this question:

    “Jesus is quoted saying something on the lines of, “Oh heavenly father, why have you forsaken me?” He apparently said this when on the crucifix. Why would a prophet of god or more importantly, the son of god be saying such a thing when he’s supposedly dying for the “sins of humanity?” (Matt. 27:46)

    What ever reason you give me, you know that not to be true. I can’t believe Jesus would ever say such a cowardly thing under any circumstances.

    I am not Muslim, so why say “I have some good Muslim friends who do their research about Christianity and try their best to stop other Muslims from using bad arguments.”?

    I clearly stated that I don’t belong to any religion as of yet, so that can’t apply to me.

    @ Cat

    “No idea who the “Chavs” are or what you mean by “Chav”. No one here is illiterate or ill-informed , I think thats quite a rude thing to say, especially from someone who won’t stick around for any answers!!”

    It’s abundantly clear from his/her post that he/she was referring to: marvin t and morena!

    If you’re saying they’re not ill-informed by their comparisons and comments, then I can’t say I blame that person for not wanting to come back.

    Example: “One says do not kill and the other says do not kill unless it is to spread the religion.”

    Forgive me, I’ve been remiss. It does teach you that in Islam does it not? Let’s not confuse peoples cultural views with true religion, and let’s not throw around what we’ve learned from the media as fact. That’s just pathetic!

    If you can defend those two as being literate, then I guess it’s high-time I packed my bag and got on the saddle too.

  38. Seeker – Thanks for taking the time to read my comment. Some of the Jewish persuasion may refer to Christianity as polytheistic as many Muslims also mistakenly do, however that comes from a misunderstanding of historical Christianity and the triune God of scripture. Christianity has always been and will continue to be mono-theistic.

    What reputable scholars have ascertained is that we can trust what we have written in the NT, this doesn’t mean that there are not some problems and issues that are continuing to be resolved, I don’t deny this. if there are some other specific examples then I’m sure Cat or myself would be happy to address them if we can.

    Apologies for referring to you as a Muslim. I had a lot of comments to read through as I hadn’t been here for a while.

    “Jesus is quoted saying something on the lines of, “Oh heavenly father, why have you forsaken me?” He apparently said this when on the crucifix. Why would a prophet of god or more importantly, the son of god be saying such a thing when he’s supposedly dying for the “sins of humanity?” (Matt. 27:46)

    The quote is – And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

    Jesus is quoting the first verse from Psalm 22, a Psalm famous for its move from utter despair to triumph. This passage is much deeper than what you appear to understand, that’s fine. I’ll try and elaborate a little. Psalm 22 was known to the Jews at the time as a messianic Psalm and the implications of this would have been clear. Jesus’ cry from the cross would have been understood in light of what he had previously said of the darkness after his death and the tearing of the temple divide, they were together eschatological signs and hence the prayer cannot be understood in isolation. Also as you know Jesus willingly went to the cross, he made no attempt to defend himself when he could have, he fully understood the reason and necessity of his suffering on the cross.

    Also commonly throughout the Bible a loud cry is associated with a eschatological sign, see John 5:28, 1 Thess. 4:16 etc. What is clear is that Jesus understood as have Christians that what he said was an allusion the whole of Psalm 22 from suffering > victory!

    Hope that helps somehow.

  39. @ Dan

    Thanks. It does somewhat, but it still doesn’t justify a prophet saying that. I’m feeling more inclined to believing the Islamic version of events (what happened to Jesus), as I find it hard to comprehend a prophet would ever say that to god (I do believe in god and the prophets, just not in practice of one particular religion over the other).

    The only thing I can deduce is, people carry on believing whatever they’re taught from birth and no matter how much you try to educate them otherwise, they’ll still believe what they do (religion or anything else). So there’s no point in arguing who’s right and wrong. I guess judgment day itself will tell and god is the only judge.

    • I think this is overly pessimistic. Clearly many people do carry on believing what they’re taught and don’t change their beliefs or even come to own them as their own beliefs. However, even if that is the majority it is not everybody. Many other people do seek the truth and want to discover things for themselves.

      Our survival can depend on it and it seems that only through a radical change of action can we save the lives of millions of vulnerable people on this planet.

      Questions as big as what is the origin of the universe, has our life purpose, can we defeat death, surely these questions cannot be left to wait and see?

      May be if we wait and see it is too late? Let us instead seize our fate in our hands by discovering the Truth for ourselves.
      Read the Gospels and other books from different religions if you wish, open your heart to the possibility of God and see if you can see for yourself. Let experience guide you. Ask questions with and sincere mind and an open heart. That is all I ask. You may learn that you are a son of God.

      Ephesians 2 19-22

      “19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.”

  40. To Cat:

    I’m not sure that I define God only through being Creator. THat was not my intention at any rate.

    God is infinite and beyond our understanding yet through the message of Jesus Christ through approaching God as Father and becoming His children though accepting Jesus as saviour we can know God through a personal relationship.

    I think we agree on this. I think you are right that it is not immoral or unloving to argue that Christians and Muslims worship a different God.

    My argument though is that all the differences you point towards are about different conceptions of God. Muslims who seek the truth, who worship God (Allah is Arabic for God and used by Christians as well) may well be on the first step to discovering God’s love and that personal relationship.

    I would argue to and implore them to read the Gospels with an open heart and attitude of worship and genuine desire to find the truth and then God knows where this will lead.

    I am a Christian not a Muslim. It is clear that Muslims and Christians have different ideas and we need to be honest about that.

    But in order to invite Muslims to know God fully it doesn’t seem useful or correct to say that they do not worship the same God.
    It seems to me that a more useful approach is to take the one Paul did in his message to the Athenians and their “unknown God” (Acts 17, 22-31) to fully know Him is what is offered by the message of Christ. Muslims have a conception of God (in Arabic, “Allah”). They are in many cases sincere and have a willingness to know God. That ability to know God is available through the message of Christianity, that God so loves the world He becomes human and dies for us so that we can live forever.

  41. Fascinating to what length religion can drive humans; in this case to a very long and partly interesting discussion. A discussion about things that doesn’t exists; never did and never will, except in peoples mind. The perfect end to this discussion would be that you and your fellow believers accept that each human have the right to believe in what they want; and that this is what the words says: A belief. Nothing more, nothing less.

    If you all did so, then it wouldn’t really matter if there is one, two or many gods!

  42. Unfortunately religion is responsible for a lot more than a somewhat longwinded conversation. If by ‘religion’ we mean the institutions around various belief systems and cultural practices and the elites that use and rule these institutions it can be responsible for social oppression, for war, for genocide, for hatred. The beliefs themselves can justify almost anything. That said there are positives of course-m great art, solace, cultural developments. But we should judge a religious argument by its truth and the facts as ‘a believer of facts’ no doubt would argue.

    ‘Facts’ are not just things we see- witness magnetism, evolution, gravity, atoms, quarks etc. Of course we may see the results of these forces and be able to measure them, put forward hypotheses, make predictions, test them etc. However, abstraction is a fundamental part of science, ‘fact’ and human perception in general. So is belief. The question is, “Is that belief tested and modified in the light of experience?”

    Humans have constructed and gained access to universal potentially infinite systems of classification and meaning making through language and mathematics to give two examples. It is an open question whether the universe is a finite system or infinite, unbounded or not. It does however seem impossible to banish the infinite and limit the universe to a finite series of axioms. Aristotle, Russell, Godel.
    See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actual_infinity#Aristotle.27s_potential.E2.80.93actual_distinction

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_paradox

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del's_incompleteness_theorems

    http://fqxi.org/data/essay-contest-files/Wolfram_WhatIsUltimatelyPos_1.pdf

    Even if we remained agnostic on whether the Infinite or whether God exists then the central tenets of Christ would still hold- the unlimited value of each human being, our need for love, our need for uncountable, unconditional love, our need to give over out whole life to this uncountable unconditional love. But through testing this message of forgiveness and love, of not sitting in judgement so that we be not judged (Luke 6:37) we find something amazing happens. Our life is opened up to whole new vistas and horizons of experience, that we become one with the divine, with Jesus and God Himself. So take the test- open your heart to God and Jesus’ message and test whether you are moved and transformed. It is worth it. And then you will find there is one unlimited Infinite, one God and we can become part of Him and He can live in us. Probably won’t convince ‘believer of facts’ but hey the universe is full of strange beauty!

  43. Guys,

    Watch this video on youtube: why i hate islam ?

    and here’s the link (hopefully it will show):

    If you can’t see it, just type: why i hate islam ? in youtube exactly as written and after the search you should see a guy wearing a white top with a red love heart on it.

    I checked all his quotes and they are in the bible and other christian scriptures. I’d like to hear your explanations of the verses quoted. I’m also interested as to how you will try making out that they are out of context.

    I look forward to your response.

    • This video is a strawman and unhelpful to the discussion, the statements do not argue any previous statements about supposed prophecies of Muhammed in the bible and completely ignore the comments which have already given you answers about the trinitiy. See the above comments from Dave Bish, Daniel Rodger and myself.

      We do not hate Islam or Muhammed, we disagree though that Muhammed is a prophet. We also disagree with the historical account the Qur’an portrays of Jesus and Jesus’ crucifixion. The video sets up no other argument that we haven’t already discussed previously.

  44. If you type the following in youtube: “Older Manuscripts found in Palestine says that Jesus Christ (A) is NOT a God!”

    It will bring you a documentary investigating old scriptures from Jesus’ life and written by his family. If this isn’t proof that the bible has been changed, I don’t know what is. People who believe that old scripture are the true Christians, everyone else it seems are pagans in their beliefs of a modified religion (according to the documentary, so no offense intended).

    Do try to watch it.

    • I have watched the video and see no reason to reach the same conclusion as yourself.

      1.) The Didache is an old book that shows early practices of Christianity. It hints at a knowledge of ‘immortality, which You modest known to us through Jesus Thy Servant’. A possible hint of Christ’s ressurection. Though, this is speculation, as is the conclusion (which you seem to agree with) from the video’s narrator. This document, when read alongside the gospels and the new testament writings is actually in agreement with their teachings and in no way outright declares Jesus is not God. So this could be used either way to argue and does not help your argument against the deity of Jeus at all.

      2.) The video goes into no detail as to when the bible was put together. It makes conclusions without basis, no reference to scholars (who is the man with the white beard) and the only named man (Archbishop Aristarchos) actually disagrees with the narrators leading questions (he has no neutrality at all) and says the fact of the resurrection should not be ignored. You seem to have ignored it.

      3.) While we are attaching videos. Please have a look at this one and tell me what you think.

      There is strong evidence the Qur’an is not as reliable or authentic as you think.

      4.) Why do you argue against the bible being changed when Muhammed himself and the Qur’an point to it’s authenticity?

      Sura 5:46 – Subsequent to them, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the previous scripture, the Torah. We gave him the Gospel, containing guidance and light, and confirming the previous scriptures, the Torah, and augmenting its guidance and light, and to enlighten the righteous.

      I look forward to your response.

      God bless,

      Phil

  45. Noob – two quick points. Your lack of research is saddening. The video you posted is a joke [as in the person is taking the mick out of Christians, its satire it even says so in the title if you took the time to investigate it before you used it to offend actual Christians ] and even if it wasn’twhich I doubt its one of the silliest videos I’ve ever watched, are you telling us you thought this guy is serious? What is the exact point you are trying to make? Its a straw man argument, and adds nothing to the conversation.

    Secondly I typed into you-tube the video that you suggested, Christians have known about the Didache for ages. Again this has nothing to do with the actual discussion.

    Why don’t you read the Didache for yourself and see for your-self why there is no issue and never has been, yes a few people at one point thought it should be included in the canon but the clear historical consensus was that it shouldn’t be, there’s nothing to hide. – http://carm.org/christianity/miscellaneous-topics/didache

    If you go to the link of the first video you will see that it says it is satire for yourself! http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QPIvLfZ4_nk

  46. If he’s own family and closest followers don’t see him as god, then how can you? Because of some other normal humans (normal being the operative word) who changed the testament to suit their needs? It’s contradictory. Jesus and all the prophets before him declared it is god himself to be worshipped, no one else. Otherwise it’s just idolatry.

    You say Jews and Christians have the same god, I beg to differ. Jews don’t hold anyone in the same category as god, thus, they also view Christians as idolaters. Ironically, they view you as idolaters and you yourself say you worship the same god as them when the don‘t even acknowledge you. It seems a tad hypocritical on your part.

    You said:

    “There is strong evidence the Qur’an is not as reliable or authentic as you think.”

    As I think? I don’t remember telling you anything of what I think Islam is or based upon. I asked you to give me light on the events that I heard and read upon, that’s all.

    I never claimed to be a Muslim nor argued from the perspective of one. You choosing to bring them in and try to ridicule them just goes to show your antagonism towards Islam. You guys did this with someone else before. As soon as someone questions you, you automatically switch on your defences and try to attack Islam. What the hell is that about? Was this forum only created for Islam vs. Christianity – death match?

    In regards to your video (I might as well since I know both religions), Muslims had hafiz’s from the conception of Islam. There were thousands of hafiz’s at that time who together (1000‘s of them) put it to paper at a later date (without any dispute of the order and the contents), certainly not 70 years later, more like within 18 years. Thousands of hafiz repeating the Qur’an and listening to it for mistakes so the writers put it down verbatim.

    The same can’t be said about the Bible (which had no equivalent of a hafiz) which had bits and bats stuck together over centuries. You can’t say the same for the Bible that was written over a period of 1,600 Years, By 40 different authors (or thereabouts). Don’t get me wrong, I do believe in Christianity, just not the changed version that is widely available today.

    Ironically, you seem to use the so called proof from the Qur’an ascertaining the legitimacy of the Bible when you also claim Islam is a lie. You’ve got to see the hypocrisy of your words. And I’m sure if the Qur’an is a true word of god, then that passage refers to the original revelations given to Jesus, not at the ones that decided to change it afterwards. If you believe the Bible to be god’s word, then it can’t be changed by a normal human such as you or I.

    God bless

    Sam

    • Hi Sam, I apologise if I seem like I have assumed incorrectly about what position you are questioning from. You posted two videos with clear Islamic viewpoints, the second more so than the first and so I hope you can see why I thought you were arguing from a muslim perspective. To say I’ve ridiculed Islam after ‘bringing them in’ is unfair but if that is how I’ve come across then I do apologise. This is a discussion and there is disagreement and unfortunately disagreement in writing can often seem antagonising, this is not how I mean it.

      In response to your last statement, I did not use any proof to ascertain the legitmacy of the Bible from the Qur’an. I would have no need to and I’m not sure where you got that assumption.

      “If he’s own family and closest followers don’t see him as god, then how can you? Because of some other normal humans (normal being the operative word) who changed the testament to suit their needs? It’s contradictory. Jesus and all the prophets before him declared it is god himself to be worshipped, no one else. Otherwise it’s just idolatry.”

      See there is an assumption – even in the video you’ve linked to – that James doesn’t see Jesus as divine. Where does he say this?

      You say that people changed the bible to suit their needs? Where do you get your evidence for this?

      “You say Jews and Christians have the same god, I beg to differ. Jews don’t hold anyone in the same category as god, thus, they also view Christians as idolaters. Ironically, they view you as idolaters and you yourself say you worship the same god as them when the don‘t even acknowledge you. It seems a tad hypocritical on your part. ”

      Jesus fulfills the Old Testament and therefore we do worship the same God as Jews as Jesus taught. I’m not quite sure this makes me a hypocrite – possibly in Jewish eyes…

      You said “Don’t get me wrong, I do believe in Christianity, just not the changed version that is widely available today.”
      - What Christianity exactly is this and how do you know this is a reliable version of Christianity?

      Thank you for your response. I am honestly interested in your answers to these questions and will take some time to research them before responding.

      Phil

  47. Hi Phil,

    You say Christians and Muslims don’t believe the same god because they don’t believe in the trinity. Well, neither do the Jews, so you can’t say your god is the same as theirs. All you’re doing is going round in circles and that is hypocritical. I believe in all the prophets from Adam to Muhammad and think all the monotheistic religions do have one god.

    All the prophets from Adam to Jesus came for the Jews specifically, it’s only Muhammad (apparently) that was sent for the whole of humanity. All the prophets preached the oneness of god and that he alone is to be worshipped. No normal human (or Saint for that matter) has the right to change the apparent true word of god.

    Muhammad’s lineage can be traced to Abraham. Specifically from his son’s side (Ishmael). I’m sorry I can’t give you the proof in regards to chapters and verses, but I have been to 3 priests and 2 rabbis. The 2 priests and first rabbi said there is no mention of the coming of another messiah, but the latter of which (both sides) told me that there is mention of him in the Christian and Jewish scripture and showed me the proof and mention of him in the ancient texts.
    The rabbi also went on to show me a historical document (from Jewish historians) confirming Muhammad‘s lineage. Learned Jews except Muhammad being from Abraham’s line. You see, not all rabbis and priests are of the same calibre nor do they all understand scripture as good as the rest. If Islam is the last religion, the Qur’an has been unchanged and yet it is still interpreted differently by different groups. One can only imagine the difficulties of interpreting the bible and torah (and other scriptures therein) that came way before and may not even be in its original format.

    I consider myself educated, but still can’t give you the kind of proof you require to justify my claims, for this I‘m very sorry.

    I didn’t think it’s something I needed to remember, (from over 10 years ago) especially since I’ve never wanted this kind of conversation with anyone nor expect others to believe my findings. After today I don’t think I’ll ever engage in this kind of conversation again.

    I didn’t ask the priest, but I asked the rabbi (the ones mentioned above): “If this is true, then why haven‘t you converted?” He replied: “We Jews never change our religion. God sent to us the prophet Moses and we didn‘t even listen to him. Do you think we‘ll listen to another prophet after him, from another tribe?”

    He wasn’t trying to be insulting, just speaking with charisma and a hint of sarcasm.

    There is proof in the Qur’an of the earth being round and in orbit of the sun as well as of the sex gametes (which has a haploid number of chromosomes) forming a diploid number of chromosome (zygote) cell. This was all discovered by the human race at a much later date. You can’t deny that this isn’t the word of god. This is something no scientist of that time or before could verify without the technology we have today.

    I am the kind of person that always changes his views when facts are present, I’ll never make excuses to stick to what I know. I say this because I want you to take in the words I’m about to say, seriously. If ever you were to trust a complete stranger, I ask you to do this now.

    I don’t lie, I don’t think my opinions are the best and ultimate, I don’t even want you to become Muslim (although, my post may prove to the contrary), I just want you to conduct the research for yourself to become a better Christian. There is no trinity and to believe or associate anything or anyone else as the same calibre as god is one of the ultimate sins. It is idolatry.

    Don’t stick to the internet. Go ask rabbis and priests until you find one that confirms what I said above (which you will find eventually and you owe it to yourself as a true believer). Don’t just take the word of one that your most familiar with.

    Muslims are allowed to marry a true Christian and Jew because they are considered to be the people of the book. But they’re not allowed to marry Christians of the sect that associate others with god.

    I may come across Muslim, I only argue from their perspective because I truly believe the Qur’an to be the final message of god. But I assure you, I’m anything but a Muslim, Christian or a Jew.

    The facts you need: There was a rabbi and priest I knew and held in high esteem because of their wisdom, but unfortunately they have passed on. Unfortunately, there is no other priest or rabbi I can refer you to. That only leaves the following two souls that I now know of.

    I still think you should find someone in life yourself, but if you prefer to stick to the net, then try the following people:

    1) Sheikh Abdur Raheem Green.

    He is a previous Christian convert to Islam and I think based in England.

    2) Dr Zakir Naik.

    A hafiz and knows all monotheistic religious books from memorization. He was a born Muslim, but he won’t try to convert you or be biased. Just ask him your questions and for the written proof. He’ll give you chapters and verses form the bible (all versions even where they contradict each other) and torah which you yourself can verify.
    You don’t even have to ask him anything about Islam, only Christianity, if you prefer.

    I don’t want to hear anyone’s personal beliefs to the above mentioned people, all I ask is that you talk to them. This has been a long post and I haven’t even covered half of what I wanted to say, but I hope it suffices.

    Finally, I hope I had your number or personal email to converse with properly, but obviously that’s not something you give on a public forum or to a complete stranger. In layman terms, this is my last post and I wish you all the best in your search. I beg you not to feel contented with the knowledge you already possess. May the blessings of god shower you and your family.

    Sam

    • Sam, I would love to continue this conversation – I have an email I check occassionally but I use it on public forums – britmangi04 at hotmail dot com (obviously change the at with @ and the dot with .) if you are up for remaining in conversation. If you email me there I will then give you a more personal email that I check more regularly.

      I will definitely research these people you have said as well as the Hafiz.

      I do find it strange though that I should only find two people that confirm what you have said. I can find many other scholars who have done just as much if not more research and are highly qualified in understanding scriptural texts, Qur’an, OT and NT and come out with different findings and yet agree that the trinity is the best way to understand scripture.

      That said, it is more the resurrection of Jesus that holds me to christianity, for as Paul wrote, without it christianity is nothing and our faith is worthless. From what I have researched, the Qur’an does not give an accurate account of Jesus’ death whereas the gospels are backed up with locations, times, oral tradition, the teachings of the early church and the silence of the Roman guards and Jewish authorities at the time to produce a body.

      I will leave the rest of the discussion to email. It is a shame you will never have a conversation like this, remembering the evidence for your faith is important and if you hold to Christianity at all then 1 Peter 3:15 is something that should remind you of why.

      God bless and I look forward to discussing further by email.

      Phil

  48. God is love and so loved the world that He became human, “so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” John 3:16

    Muslims believe in God, the God of the Old Testament and the Law but have a limited human notion of God, dismissing the idea that God became human and can live in our hearts, as idolatry.

    No! It is the highest example of God’s power and majesty! Through the Spirit of Love we can become liberated and renewed, born again in Christ.

    God is love, God is beyond all human conceptions of Him, yet through this gift of Love we can become one with Him. This is the greatest message and the greatest lesson of life. I wish for all human beings to share in this love; we fight against all injustice and hatred, all prejudice and harm. We love our Muslim brothers and sisters as much as ourselves and wish to share the Divine Joy and Divine Love that has been given to us.

    From 1 John 4 “7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.”

    To know this, to taste this, is to live every moment in joy and cast away forever death, misery, sorrow and loneliness.

    May all get to know this bliss, through Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour. May this blessing suffuse the hearts of every man, woman and child of every nation and age!

  49. Peace be unto you all.

    To everyone who is reading this discussion or has already read all above, I saw this forum few days ago and have been reading this ongoing discussion,
    Now I feel that I need to make few clarification and points and I will do that, Insha’Allah

    This is for me and my understanding:

    Allah or God is the creator of the universe and everything in it.

    Every created thing belongs to one God – Allah

    Not everyone worship the one God.

    Christians worship Jesus (pbuh) as their god

    Christians have created idols of Jesus (pbuh) and Mary (Jesus’s (pbuh) mother) in their church where they worship them.

    Idols = an image or representation of a god used as an object of worship.

    Idolatry = Worship of idols

    Christians = idolatry

    Christians believes that there is father the god and his son Jesus and the Holy Ghost (the Trinity)

    1 + 1 + 1 = 3 NOT 1

    Christians worship 3 gods

    ———————————————————–

    A Muslim is some one who submits Their Will to God

    Muslims believe that God is one – Allah

    Jesus (pbuh) submitted his will to God – Allah (John 6:37-38)

    Jesus (pbuh) worshipped one God – Allah

    Jesus (pbuh) taught Salvation comes from Submitting your will to God (Matthew 7:21-23) – NOT to him

    Muslims and Jesus (pbuh) has the same God – Allah

    ————————————————————–

    In conclusion, Jesus (pbuh) worshipped the same God as Muslims do, the followers of Jesus (p.b.u.h) were Muslims when they followed him and obeyed the orders of God but today’s Christians took Jesus (pbuh) as their god so Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God, today’s Christians are NOT Christian at all as they do not follow the teachings of Jesus (pbuh)

    Jesus (pbuh) never built a church where people worshipped him or his idol or his mother’s idol or said build churches and have my idol and my mother’s idol in the church and worship me or my idol.

    ——————————————————————

    My last point:

    There seems to be very clever people like Jason, Cat, Phil, Dan on this discussion but I am sorry to say that they are very confused or knowingly trying to lead other people to confusion,

    If not how can they say that 1+1+1 is equal to 1 (the Trinity) when asked a child can give you the correct answer.

    If not how can they say that they worship one God when they state that God the father sent his one and only Son into the world, here you have two Jesus and his farther and then you have the Holy Ghost.

    if not how can they say that God became human when it is known that human does not have any divine power so when God became human he lost all his power and stuck in this human form and when this human died (absolute truth) their God died too. Even if this human ever came back as a sprit after dying this sprit will not have divine power because you just don’t die and then came back with super powers (Human = No divine power or not God).

    Lastly I would like to say I am sorry if the above comments have hurt anybodies feeling.

    May Allah open your eyes, mind and guide you to the true religion of Jesus (pbuh).

  50. Dear Muslim, may the peace and blessings of God be upon you!

    I have three simple questions for you.
    1) Is it possible for God to know everything in the universe and therefore choose to live life as a human being?
    2) Is it possible that God loves us and wants unlimited peace, riches and bliss for everyone of us?
    3) Why create a universe at all?

    For God all things are possible: He is unlimited. God is beyond limit, beyond any circumscription. Muslim claims it is impossible for God to have a son but to God all things are possible.

    Muslim claims that it is impossible for 1+1+1 to equal 1 and that any child knows this. Actually if God is infinite it is possible for there to be different aspects of his divinity. What is infinity plus infinity plus infinity? I’ll leave you to answer that.

    I do not know the answer to 3) but Genesis suggests that God created the world, finite beings so that they could become infinite and know God.
    Genesis 1 27“27 So God created mankind in his own image,
    in the image of God he created them;”
    God created humans in free will to choose between good and evil.
    Genesis 3 22
    I am a father and know that when my son discovers something for himself I am filled with joy. Perhaps part of the answer is that God gave us freedom which meant accepting that we may fail but giving us every chance to discover bliss and the infinite fir ourselves. This suggests that God can be like a father to us and that we can become children of God.

    John 15
    The Vine and the Branches
    1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
    5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
    9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

  51. ok ppl .. (Those who believe (in the Qur-an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.)[Qur'an 2:62]

    u see !. All of you will go to heaven. be happppppppy :D.

  52. Resources for Deuteronomy 18:1 - 2

  53. Prophecy Servant of God
    ` ` ` ` ` ` ` `
    word Atmak not necessarily means ‘whom I uphold’ but is infact a name

    the writing of Atmak is אתמך
    the writing of Ahmad is אחמד

    Isaiah 42:1
    God says
    “Behold, ‘My Servant’ (pronounced as Abd-ee), ‘whom I uphold’ (pronounced as Atmak);

    God mentioning about the coming of His servant
    Behold My Servant Ahmad (Isaiah 42:1) – so who is this Ahmad as in God’servant?

    He is none other than
    Abd-Allah Ahmad (Servant of God, Ahmad) – Prophet Muhammad s.a.w

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